2 10 15 https://www.baltimoreuprising2015.org/files/original/005f6f63b3cb477b07fa8e91d68b180e.mp3 41a9f56869fb317c4708249147f0ae08 https://www.baltimoreuprising2015.org/files/original/1ab24822fe4577f3fb632ae0f8133ffd.JPG 2363af57cc0a98c3126bb49706ed9343 https://www.baltimoreuprising2015.org/files/original/70c5331e5103959f289e7542a3c03776.pdf c63520c78d8d08bf0c9314915719e1ea PDF Text Text Preserve the Baltimore Uprising 2015 Online Archive Transcription of the interview with Duane “Shorty” Davis Sha’Von Terrell: ​[2:06] Good Afternoon. I am Sha’Von Terrell interviewing Shorty at Maryland Historical Society on Monday, November 7th at 10 a.m. We are here for the Preserve the Baltimore Uprising 2015 online archive project. So, we are going to start off with generic background questions. May you please share your full name? Shorty: ​My name is Duane “Shorty” Davis Sr. I was born 12/26/1959 in Milwaukee, Illinois. Sha’Von Terrell​: So, what is your connection to Baltimore? Shorty: ​I am a father. I am a political activist. I am a community activist. I work with the homeless. I am the founder of the Baltimore Bloc. I am part of a lot of different coalitions here in Baltimore. I am a well known individual. I am a private business owner, sole proprietorship of “Shorty’s Underground Ribs ” and “Shorty’s bootleg barbeque”. I am un-paid lobbyist in Annapolis and Washington, DC. I am a prisoner's right advocate. I am a member of Out For Justice. I am a man of many hats. Sha’Von Terrell: ​Ok. What is your experience like living in Baltimore as an African-American man? Shorty: ​ Living in Baltimore as an African-American man is like living on a plantation in the 1800s. You got to walk on eggshells where you go in communities that are not communities of color, Rolling Park, the Inner Harbor, Canton, Fells Point. You got 2 Baltimores, the Black Baltimore, the White Baltimore. You got 3 Baltimore's, you got a Black Baltimore, a White Baltimore, and a Money Baltimore. The Money Baltimore is more of the class caste type system. You know? You got to be an acceptable Black to around here. You can’t be that hood Black around here. You know? Sha’Von Terrell: ​So, where is the money Baltimore? Or is that within the 2? Shorty: ​ It is within the 2. It would be like where does Baltimore invest their money? That is the money Baltimore. Canton, Fells Point, you know what I am saying? Sha’Von Terrell: ​Ok. Like the L? �Shorty: ​ Where they are doing the most redevelopment at that is the money Baltimore. Where they are doing the least development at is the Black Baltimore. You didn’t want to do anything in Sandtown until you had the riots. Right? What made Sandtown so important, because America was looking at Sandtown. They were looking at Freddie Gray. They were looking at the projects. The sex scandal that was going on been going on for a long time. Lucky Cosby told y'all about it a long time ago about the politics down there. But, now all of the sudden, since we are watching what happened to Freddie Gray and the world is watching Baltimore. We got the housing scandal that came out of it. So, a long as they are watching Baltimore we got to show them what Baltimore is. We have to show them the 2 sides, the 3 sides of Baltimore. We got to them the racism that exists here. It doesn't just exist here in Baltimore; it exists across America. Being Black in White America is a hard thing to do. Sha’Von Terrell: ​That’s true. Um..so now I am going to transition into community activism questions. Um..can you describe race relations in Baltimore before the uprising? Shorty: ​Before the Uprising, we had racial issues. We have been having racial issues in Baltimore forever. I mean but nobody has ever talked about it. They don’t talk about it until it effects them. Before Freddie Gray, we had Anthony Anderson. We had Tyrone West. We had Maurice Donald Johnson. We had other people murdered by the police, and they were murdered. They were murdered. They were beaten to death. They were shot and killed and they were innocent unarmed men. But, nobody said nothing or did nothing about it. Nawl, when it happened to Freddie, it hit a boiling point and the community got mad, and the community that they live in is one of the most militarized communities in Baltimore. So, they rose up like everyone else who rise up. You ain't got nowhere to go in a pot; the pot explodes. The police created that situation. The politicians created that situation, because they wrote the laws that dealt with zero tolerance. They wrote those 1194 crime bill act, that 3 strikes you’re out. They wrote those laws that reinvented Jim Crow in the Black community. Sha’Von Terrell: ​Ok. So, do you have any personal experience with Police Brutality or the Justice System? Shorty: ​ I got plenty of experiences with Police and Police Brutality, and the Justice System. I was personally making a documentary about the racism in the courts since 2006. I have been locked up in 2 different states for making this documentary, and I have been charged as a terrorist for doing this. Alright..um. In 2007, I was locked up in Lake County, Illinois. In 2011, I was locked up in Baltimore, Co, Illinois. In 2010, during �the Bob Early and Governor O’Malley debated on WJZ. On that evening, umm I have 12 Baltimore city police officers come in my house, and 6 Maryland State Troopers come in my house saying that I threatened Governor O’Malley. No paperwork. No proof. No evidence. No nothing, but that was the excuse they used to come in my house. I called the Department of Justice. I called the FBI. I recorded the calls, because I record everything that I do, and it is on youtube. You can see it plain for day. I even filed paperwork with the internal affairs. Now, when I got locked up in 2011 that was like 4 months later everything that I turned over to internal affairs is gone. Everything that I turned over to Frank Conway is gone. Everything that I turned over to the government is gone. Everything that I got locked up for on February 7th 2011 is gone. The government. The government took a truck, a computer, 8 years worth of videos, 3 diaries, a camera, and original footage for the documentary about what we are talking about today, racism and our judicial system. Racism in white America. Being Black in White America. All of this was on this film. So, I am like 5/6 years ahead of what we are going through now. I am like chicken little. I told you the sky is falling now it is. Sha’Von Terrell: ​Oh my gosh. I can’t believe that they got rid of everything. That’s ridiculous. Shorty: ​ You can go on file. You can go to Congressman Cummings’s office. You can go to Senator Carter's office. You can even contact President Obama, cause I got everything that I am telling you documented. It is called the Minority Report, and what I have been doing is keeping everything in documents. I was at an Administrative Assistant to an Engineering Officer in the USS Mississippi in 1977 and ‘79. During Iran contra, I was around when they were exporting drugs and bringing them into the country. I was in the military. I was 17 years old. So, I knew this at 17 and I’m 57; how much knowledge do I have about the government. I have been a caterer her in Baltimore City, where I work for 85% of the richest people in this state. I have been in their houses. Judges, lawyers, politicians; before the stock market collapsed Deem Witter and Morgan Stanley. I have been in their houses. I know they game plan. I know what they is planning to do. So, that information alone makes me a dangerous individual. Sha’Von Terrell: [10:00] ​Yeah, to them. Umm..soo..are you.. I know you mentioned this but what are some social and political organizations that you are a member of here in Baltimore. Can you..um.. talk about some of you activism in those organizations? Shorty: ​ I am a founding member of the Baltimore BLOC. We have a variety of members in the Baltimore BLOC. The founders are me, Pium, Iris, Beth and some other �individuals. We are multicultural, because we everybody who live on the Bloc have different colors on the Block. Alright. We started doing this about police brutality. When they doing the build the jail up on Monument street or Madison Street. When they was going to build that new youth jail. Alright, so that is when we came into existence. We started filming the police before it was popular. We not only film the police, but we document the police, and uh.. Negative interactions with police in the community, and police abuses of power by threatening individuals and illegally incarcerating people. Right now, we are dealing with Keith Davis and individual that was shot by the Baltimore City police on the false chargers to a crime that he didn't commit. He is still sitting in jail. He have been sitting in jail for a good 2 or 3 years for a crime that he didn’t commit. We, so, we rally around people like Tawanda Jones and the West Family, where we will be there every week consistently to give support to the community. We’re a community activist group where we participate in feeding the homeless, we give away free books, free food. We have been doing a lot of things in the community that is not recognized by the power at be; but they want to recognize us for our protest and things of that nature. We wouldn't have the protest if the politicians and policemen would do their jobs and stop acting like we’re not existent. They are responsible to the people. The people aren’t responsible to them. [11:57] Sha’Von Terrell: ​okay..Have you seen any change in Baltimore as a result of these events..um protests? Shorty: ​ We brung change when we brung out the numbers. We brung change when we put pressure on them. When we made them spend money for the policing, that brought change. When we brung the Department of Justice here that brung change. You know? But, that change is short lived, because they’re not proactive in Baltimore. We are reactive. We need to be more proactive. If we realize that… When we did last year when they had the march and shut down Camden Yards that was showed about money. They lost a hundred million dollars, because they couldn’t play baseball games here, because of the fear of the uprising. So, lets take that power that we had and uprise for something other than an incident that happened a murder or something. Lets rise up, because the distribution of wealth is unequal in Baltimore. Lets rise up and shut down the things and be proactive instead of being reactive showing that you need to continue to do growth within our community instead of just giving us a band-aid on the problem that you ripped off and created. Sha’Von Terrell: ​Um..how would you describe communications with local officials and Baltimore city police? �Shorty: ​There is no communications with local Baltimore City Police. They will talk to you one minute and lie to you in the same breath. The only people that the Baltimore City Police talk to is people, who they claim are the voices in the Black community; and those voices in the Black community is nothing but...they’re not the voices in the Black communities. Period. They’re not. C.D Witherspoon does not speak for the Black community. He speaks for the People’s Power Assembly. I don’t know of any of these people that they claim are Black voices that haven’t been doing anything in the Black community other than getting on camera, and being at rallies. I don’t see none of their work in the community. Show me a church. Show me a feeding. Show me something that they are doing in the community, before I can sit up here and say that is a Black voice. But, other than that it is called Black propaganda or Cointelpro. You know what I’m saying? If the media puts him on T.V and the media is hailing him as a Black voice then you need to question what the media is putting on T.V. and who they are not letting be heard. You know what I’m saying? Who they are black balling? Who they are blacklisting? You feel me? So, now we got to start controlling the narrative, and not let the mainstream media control the narrative. Shut them down. If that voice ain’t a real voice in the community...shut it down. If that voice ain't a real voice in the community..challenge them. Challenge them. Sha’Von Terrell: ​Okay. Does the Freddie Gray incident surprise you? Why or why not? Shorty: ​Does the Freddie Gray? Sha’Von Terrell: ​Incident. Shorty: ​No, it doesn’t surprise me. Look at how many murders happened before Freddie Gray. You had Ferguson. You had New York. You had Chicago. You had California. You got incidents that haven't even hit the media. No, it don't surprise me. And look at how many have happened since then. The only reason why those officers got prosecuted was because of the uprise. That was it. Mosby had no intentions of beating that case. That same judge, Barry Williams, is sitting on Keith Davis’s trial, and the same information that the State’s attorney presented against Keith Davis, Judge Barry Williams found Keith Davis guilty of. The same evidence, in the way that she presented it against the police, he found them innocent of. You feel me? If you control the courts and if you control the judges, lawyers and politicians then you dealing with a rigged system. A system that is setup for failure in the Black community. Give us equal access in the court. Give us access to the Grand Jury. Let us testify in front of the Grand Jury. Take the control and power out of the state’s attorney’s hand, and let the private citizens speak. Because if not. It is going to continue to happen. Politicians have �created the system of justice, in which protects them from prosecution and protects the police that are protecting the corruption that is going on here. If I killed a police officer, would I walk? Sha’Von Terrell: ​Nope. Shorty: ​If I beat a police officer to death, like how they beat Freddie Gray, Tyrone West and Anthony Anderson. Would I walk? If I kicked a dog. Would I walk? Sha’Von Terrell: ​Nope. Umm..what was your initial reaction, so when you found out it. When you found out that they were bringing charges to the police, how did you react, initially? Shorty: ​I told everybody, and anybody will tell you, I said that it was bullshit. I said that she was just doing just to appease the people and come down the situation. That was it. She had no intentions of willing the case. She had no intentions of beating it, and sending the police officers to jail. The State’s Attorney work with the police hand in hand. So, how is she going to bite the hand that feeds her. How many false imprisonments do you have across America, and in Baltimore City and Baltimore County at the hands of the police, and the State’s Attorney Office. They not going to eat their own. They gave you a dog and pony show at the taxpayers expense. The spent a lot of money, and that is why she dropped the charges on the last 3; cause she knew it was going to get worse before it got better. She was scared of another Uprising. So, she diffused the situation. She took the fuse out of the dynamic. And she was very disrespectful when she did what she did. Saying that she was going to prosecute the offices in Gilmore projects. That was staged. That was staged by the media. That made everybody from Gilmore Projects stay on the other side of the street, while they fill that side of the street with people that are supported her ideas. You feel me? Sha’Von Terrell: ​That’s ridiculous. I saw that video too. Shorty: ​And you seen me stand up in there in the middle of it. You seen me pull Justin Fiddent card. You seen my videos versus what you seen on mainstream media, because I ain't going to get shut down. You are not going to shut us out of a narrative. You are not going to exclude us from the conversation. You are going to hear us whither you like it or not. Sha’Von Terrell: ​Umm..was you personally involved in the protest? �Shorty: ​I was personally involved in a lot of protests. Sha’Von Terrell: ​Um.. so how did you find out about it? Shorty: ​We created it. Sha’Von Terrell: ​Okay. On social media? That’s how you got the word out? Shorty: ​We went through social media. We said that we were going to meet up, or if we heard something we was going to plan and organize, and what we plan to organize around. You can look through the archives, and see how many time Baltimore Block organized and where they organized and what they did. It speaks for itself. We took people in the inner harbor to make them uncomfortable of where they was at. You know what I’m saying? Instead of marching around in the Inner Harbor or whatever we went directly to the Inner Harbor. We went directly to the Orioles, Camden Yards. We went to 83. We went to disrupt their money, and that is the only thing that they respect, and that is the only thing that they fear is when you disrupt their money. Sha’Von Terrell: ​Okay. So, my next question is even though the national media has used a variety of terms to describe what happened last year, such as terms like demonstration, protest, riot. What term would you use define it? Shorty: ​Tired of being..tired. Um.. I called it a burp and not a uprising. I call it the exploitation of Black struggle, because of our Black tragedy. I would call it another ploy that the media used to make something bigger than what it was. The media..look at history in your archives umm..those words that they used riots, demonstrations those are the same words they used in 1960 every time Martin Luther King showed up or Malcolm X showed up. You want to demonize the message and the message; you want to control the narrative. But, those riots were caused because of the same civil ills that is going on now. Poverty, lack of housing, lack of education, mass incarceration, lack of jobs, so if the media aint talking about that, then why you want to talk about the end result of what was created by those politicians, those police officers, those media corporations. It's like they put the pot of the fire and the pot blew off, and now everything that came out of the pot is the pot’s fault. Not the people that cut the gas on. Not the people that put all of the mixtures in the mix. Not the people that wrote the laws. You know what I’m saying? You created this situation and now you want to blame the victim. C’mon it's been going on through history for how long? �Sha’Von Terrell: ​Okay. My next question is umm..I know you spoke of it before when you walked in, but I just want you to elaborate on it. Umm..the protest/uprising/the tiredness, as you say, being a accumulation of all of victims affected by police brutality of the Justice System? [21:29] Shorty: ​It was. You figured when it happened with Freddie Gray, it started out in the projects and they was mad in the projects, and you know how the projects is. They just don’t give a fuck, so that’s pretty much how it was. When it spilled over there it was uncontrolled rage. Alright. It was uncontrolled rage that was built up from an accumulation of restricted movement, over policing in the Black community, and an injustice in a judicial system. You know what I’m saying? So, they was tired of it. They exploded. That was that pot boiling over, and that pot went downtown; when that pot went downtown it scared white people. It scared white Baltimore. It disrupted their money. You feel me? So we had to calm that shit down. You calling the national guard, you had people coming from New York, New Jersey; you had people coming in here whiter than the snow that hit the ground to come and beat Black people down, and that’s all they came here for. Sha’Von Terrell: ​Umm..soo..um eventually there was violence in the protest what do you think led to the violence? Shorty: ​The police led to the violence. The police created the violence. The violence started when the police shut down the schools, and busses, and mass transportation. You got kids who got to get to the other side of town, and who ain't got no way of getting home, and you telling them to go for what you know. Then you threaten them, and talk crazy to them. Parents can’t even talk threatening and crazy to their kids before they go off. You know what I’m saying. So, they showed the police, and here we go again the media showed the kids throwing rocks at the police, but you didn't show the police throwing rocks at the kids. You also didn’t show that you cut down the Metro Station, the main vein in the area of Mondawmin. Then you sit here and have all of the police who were there, but you permitted the riot and looting of Mondawmin Mall. The police sat there and watched that shit happen. So what is you, part of the problem or part of the solution? Sha’Von Terrell:​ Exactly. Um...After the uprising, so I am transitioning into questions of after the uprising. So...um..do you feel like the media, and the television news, newspapers that reported um..the events that happened fairly? {23:24] �Shorty: ​No. Mainstream media was looking for anything that was disruptive or negative. For every negative thing that you seen in the uprising, I can can show you hundred people doing positive things in the community. Long before the uprising, during the uprising, after the uprising and now. But, all of these activists that you seen during the uprising...where was they at before the uprising? Where were their activism before Freddie Gray got murdered? You know what I’m saying? When mainstream media put that camera on them and made them who they are today. You feel me? Where is their work? What is their worth in the community? Sha’Von Terrell: ​So, has there been a change in the community as a result of the uprising? For example, an increase in grassroot activism, community policing or the creation of police reform meetings? Shorty: ​There has been uh..a plethora of police reform meetings, but that is a dog and pony show. But, the thing that came out of it was the grassroots movement. More communities are getting organized that are getting politically involved. That are getting community united with race, like 300 Gangsters. You know what I’m saying? They are getting people to get involved in the community that got skin in the game. They have invested interests, and they are organizing, so they can teach others to organize. So, yeah that’s the positive that came out of it was the grassroots. But, the police brutality meetings, the Department of Justice, and if this has been going on for so long and it took Freddie Gray for this to come out, and you proved that this was a pattern of behavior; then shouldn’t this be a criminal act and not a civil act. If a criminal act was happening then shouldn't this be prosecuted on a criminal level, then a civil level. So, my answer to that is why are we even having a dog and pony show, and why aren't we charging them in Federal court criminally. The same way that you did Rodney King’s case federally in a criminal case. Convict those police the same way. Until you start convicting police of police brutality, then police brutality is never going to go away. They are going to continue to beat us, kill us, murder us; because there is no consequences of their action, but to deter a Black man from killing and murdering, and doing any crime. You will lock us away in a jail cell for the rest of our natural born lives. [26:17] Sha’Von Terrell: ​Um…so what meaning do you take away from the uprising? What does the uprising mean to you? Shorty: ​No voice, no hope. If you don’t stand up against it, they will continue to walk all over you. I don't condemn the violence in the uprising. I don't condone it, but I don't condemn it. It was necessary when...the only thing is that America has only dealt with was when the people got tired, and they sat here and fought against the power; and that �is all the people did. They fought against the power. They had enough of it. They tired of the police beating them, they tired of the politicians just ignoring them; so they had to make their voices heard. It is like we have an irrational equation. Alright you have an numerator and a denominator right, and the numerator suppose to be the top half. Correct? The denominator is the bottom half. The denominator is the people, and the numerator is the politicians, and the justice system. They got it like we are serving them when they suppose to be serving us, so they flipped that numerator and denominator and turned it into an irrational fraction by flipping it. You feel what i’m saying? Is that intellectually correct? Sha’Von Terrell: ​No. So, now to transition into questions for the future. Do you think the city has recovered from the uprising? Shorty: ​No, I think the city is recovering. Cause like I said, um..look at the things that the city is doing and the money they gave Kevin Plank for...alright here you go. The uprising the city gave Sandtown money for this, money for murales, gave money for picins, gave money for back to school, gave money for this and gave money for that. But, the money pales in comparison to the money they were doing in backroom deals with to give Kevin Plank that money for Port Covington. If you can sit here and spend all of that money in Port Covington, and spend all of that money in Harbor East using that empowerment zone money in a white development area why can’t you do a mass renovation in the Black community. Why are we the ones always getting last fed on the plate? You gave Port Covington 50 million dollars to a billion year. He got his Under Armor on NBA, NFL and baseball. He didn't need a tif that 54 million dollars could have been put in Sandtown for new rec. Centers, job development, career development. You know what I’m saying? In the communities that needed it. Kevin Plank is a billionaire. Patty Rackis is a billionaire. You didn't need to give Patty Rackis no more money. You didn't need to give Kevin Plank no more money. You got to stop bleeding the Black community dry, and feeding that other white Baltimore. You know what I’m saying? Sha’Von Terrell: ​Yeah. So are there any ways to help improve the relationship between African Americans and the judicial system? Shorty: ​You..personally, we need everybody to get a Constitution. Everybody need to get the Constitution and read the Bill of Rights, read the Amendments, and learn the law. Ignorance of the law is no excuse of the law. Knowledge of the law is priceless that is why lawyers get paid. Alright. But, if you learn the law learn how to use the law, then the law is suppose to work for you. Um..the bail system is corrupt. Alright, Because if you look in the bail system in Baltimore County, and Baltimore City the majority of �people who are going to jail are Black. The majority of people who are getting bails are Black, and the numbers speak for themselves. Alright. We do jail support, so we see the people coming out of there, and they are people of color. They are not White. You know what I’m saying? That bail system is messed up. The Grand Jury is messed up, because our politicians like uh..Kirk Anderson and the Maryland Black Caucus wrote in a bill 374, which denies private citizens access to the Grand Jury. If you are denying private citizens access to the Grand Jury, then you tying our hands to due process, and equal protection under the law; because that means a person can go to the Grand Jury. That means that the state’s attorney can decide who goes in front of the Grand Jury by the state’s attorney having that prosecutorial discretion gives him the right to choose who goes to court and who don't. That is too much power for one person. You feel me? If a private citizen have evidence and it is his right to go in front of the Grand Jury and bring charges against those political figures. It is my right to bring charges against police officers, but if you are stacking the deck against the people here comes that irrational fraction again. Who controls the court? Who controls access to the court? Sha’Von Terrell: ​Okay..so my next question is what is one thing that you want future generations to know about race relations in America, specifically Baltimore? Shorty: ​I want the future generations to know about the past generations struggle, because all that we are going is repeating it. And because we didn’t teach yall about it about our past relationships, and our past struggles because in the 70s, 80s, and 90s we got caught up with materialistic things instead of our African heritage, then we need to teach yall about what happened yesterday to tomorrow yall know what to do with it when you see it. Sha’Von Terrell: ​And my last question is so my next question is what is one thing...uhh that is the same thing..it's the same question. Thank you for the interview. Shorty: ​Thank you for listening. Tell them when they can find this again. Sha’Von Terrell: ​Umm..so the Maryland Historical Society umm the Preserve Baltimore Uprising. Here is the website ​http://baltimoreuprising2015.org/​ and here you will find other interviews, as well as pictures that people have taken. Shorty: ​Thank you. I appreciate you. [32:40] �� https://www.baltimoreuprising2015.org/files/original/fb019a8010837ddb52ed8ba13cd48f02.pdf 3dbb0d52e0a32716084417fdb142e76d PDF Text Text �� Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Preserve the Baltimore Uprising Archive Intern Oral Histories Collection Description An account of the resource Oral histories conducted by the interns of the Preserve the Baltimore Uprising Archive Project. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Preserve the Baltimore Uprising Archive Project interns at the Maryland Historical Society Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available MdHS Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Micah Connor, Sha'Von Terrell, Sterling Warren, Sydney Cook Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource MP3, PDF, JPG Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Duane "Shorty" Davis Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Sha'Von Terrell Location The location of the interview MdHS Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Yes Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 46:34 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Duane "Shorty" Davis interview Subject The topic of the resource Demonstration / event Description An account of the resource Duane "Shorty" Davis interviewed by Sha'Von Terrell. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Sha'Von Terrell for the Preserve the Baltimore Uprising Archive Project Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available MdHS Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 11/7/2016 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Sha'Von Terrell Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource MP3, Jpeg, and PDF Baltimore Baltimore Bloc media Uprising https://www.baltimoreuprising2015.org/files/original/9e90eb8957cc78c85d8ca8b44aa5ef7e.mp3 3fdc0e8074e0fb6c74995b9ece6de4e3 https://www.baltimoreuprising2015.org/files/original/f48870cf843714bb00f849c2e16b2024.JPG e974ec02ac527aa2e8f279291fc4ef2c https://www.baltimoreuprising2015.org/files/original/797b88ee3fc29221cab979d469ef33ca.pdf ec6c1a4ce5ce4d0b07a46fdeed70cde1 PDF Text Text Preserve the Baltimore Uprising 2015 Online Archive Transcription of the interview with Tawanda Jones Sha’Von Terrell​: Good afternoon, I am Sha’Von Terrell interviewing Ms. Tawanda Jones at Maryland Historical Society on Sunday, October 9th at 12:30 p.m. We are here for the Preserve the Baltimore Uprising 2015 online archive project. Um, so I am going to start off by asking you some generic questions, in regards to, um, your experience here in Baltimore. Tawanda Jones​: Ok. Sha’Von​: So, may you please share your full name? TJ​: My name is Tawanda Jones. Sha’Von:​ Where are you from originally, and where do you currently reside? Tawanda:​ Um, I am from and I currently reside in Baltimore, Maryland. Sha’Von​: Ok, can you describe race relations in Baltimore before and after the Uprisings? Tawanda:​ Well. Before and after, race relations before and after the uprise, well to me before the uprise you had like a lot of people didn’t want to really talk about how race played a part of everyday things that we go through as Black, African-Americans. So, you know, you had a lot of people who kinda played like sides, and didn’t want to deal with it. So, basically to me after the uprise it made everybody like uncomfortable, and it made everyone have like, feelings like wow is this really happening, and it made everybody address this serious issue that has been going on for decades. Sha’Von:​ Yeah, I am glad that you used the word uncomfortable, because my mentor told me that when people start feeling uncomfortable that is when change start to happen. Tawanda:​ Exactly, that is when change start happening. Exactly. Sha’Von:​ So, what is your experience like of living in Baltimore as an African-American woman? Tawanda: ​Well, as an African-American woman living here in Baltimore for the most part before my brother was brutally murdered, it to me I feel like I... basically when my brother was executed on July 18th, 2013… I feel like that changed my life forever. So, looking at before then I felt like my whole world was complete; I was so happy to be in Baltimore, even though I saw like many issues, but they kinda had the issue segregated, because if you’re not effected immediately by what is going on the you really don’t know what is going on. So, basically you have the media painting this scene, you know of what the police is saying, and things like that and you know �what they want you to believe, and if you are naive and you don’t know; you will believe the news. If you are not your own conscious consumer, you’ll believe the media, you’ll...you know, like hey this is not effecting me. You know what I’m saying? You’ll feel for the people that going through, but it’s not affecting you personally, so when the media..um..basically puts out the narrative of something you instantly believe them. And, I feel like all of my life, I was living blind and I was believing that we have a justice system that, you know if you’re a law-abiding citizen doing the right things then you going to get that due process of law that will work in your favor, which I learned the hard way that I didn’t know how corrupt this city, and not just this city that I live in Baltimore city, but that the world is so evil... like... with the people that hold power and it’s horrible. You will see how then I was who how was I living like this the whole time not knowing that okay in my own city of Baltimore is like a city of two cities,it is like we are segregated. Even though, “we made it out of slavery” to me its modern day slavery, you know you got the white rich people here and things like that and you have the poverty, poor people over here, and, you know, and even they, they way that the police in the county and things of that nature. It is a beautiful thing, because I teach at a private school, and I ride pass the officers that are being really friendly to the kids and greeting them, and sometimes handing them pieces of fruit, and telling them to have a beautiful day. But, then when I come home, and I am riding through my neighborhood, I see little kids sitting on the ground and, you know, getting harassed. You know, it’s horrible. It’s disgusting. Sha’Von:​ So, my next question is..um...If you are comfortable, can you elaborate on more on your personal experience with police brutality, and your experience with your brother? Tawanda: ​ Oh, yes I am very comfortable.​ ​Even though like this whole thing is not comfortable, at all, but I learned my comfort zones in it, because I know at the end of the day I rather die with my fist up fighting for my people then to lay down and let them walk all over on top of us. I rather be that frog that is not adjusting to the temperature of the water that is slowly dying. I’m right at the top like nawl, I’m not; because if you know about the project with the frogs, you will know that if you put frogs in a pot of boiling hot water they are going to hop out, but if you put those frogs in that water and you slowly adjust that temperature they are going to stay in there and slowly die. That is why I feel like is happening with my people, in regards to police and things of that nature. Literally, I have been on the battlefield now for 1,173 days, like 167 weeks, like I literally count down every day and with me fighting against the way that my brother was brutally murdered and brutally as he was executed he was an unarmed man driving my Mercedes Benz and he was executed, and the crazy part is the first two cops that pulled my brother over for no reason ,they had no reasons for pulling him over, he wasn’t doing anything wrong. The only thing that he was doing was driving black while being in America, and that was it. Now-a-days that is deadly. That is deadly and we see this. You know, with that being said, um… you know, the issue with fighting, like you know, it is not like I’m fighting 1 or 2 cops, I’m fighting the whole entire system. Like it is so real, like once you put yourself out there, and you say look I am not standing for this. It’s not like I’m anti-police. I am anti-police brutality. You will not brutalize and kill my people, and don’t expect me to point my fingers at you and call a spade, a spade. You know, ain’t nobody leading me, ain't nobody paying me and telling me don’t say this and don’t �say that. I am going to say what I feel, and what is on my heart for my people. You know, with that being said, my brother was executed and me fighting with police brutality, then finding out, learning that the first two cops, Nicholas David Chatman and Officer Louise, who pulled my brother over, started this vicious unknowingly attack on my brother. For no reason, they pulled him out by his dreadlocks, pepper spraying him, kicking him, stomping him and tasing him. Once, they realized that they were killing my brother, they had a moment when they said ‘you know what? We have to cover our butts.’ That is what they are taught in training to cover our butts. COA. I mean, CYA, cover your hind-parts. With that being said, they had one of those moments, when they called a fake signal 13 for a bunch of officers to come in and assist in brutally executing my brother, and if that moment when they came with 11 to 15 officers arrived. Right now, my brother was asking them too “why are you doing this to me? STOP.” You know, they done handcuffed him, pepper spray him, and tased him. Killing him. He is instantly running for help, not running, because if he wanted to get away from them he would have never pulled over. But, he pulled over, turned the console light on in my car, had his hands out letting him know hey, and speaking the witness said my brother said, “Good evening officers, whats going on?” They instantly started beating him. The first two killer cop Nicholas David Chatman, and Office Louise they almost killed Abdul Saleem in the same neighborhood right on corner 17 days before. For me to learn that they almost killed a victim the day before, Darrell Harris. He was almost executed the day before they killed my brother. Had it not been for Darrell Harris telling his passenger in car to “call l 911. I want a supervisor to come out here.” My poor brother did not have a fighting chance. It’s sickening. So, with that being said I’m taking on this. Then they let an officer from Morgan State University, David Louis, sat on my brother’s dying back until he was no longer screaming, and moving. My brother dying words were “Trayvon Martin, Help Me.” He saying another victims name. Our last conversation before he pulled off in my car, and he said, “Sis are you going with me?” and I said. “No, I am just going to relax and finish eating dinner, and I will see you when I get back. Can you pick up your niece?” Then he asked, “Are you okay with the Trayvon Martin verdict?” I teach all year around, even in the summer. That day we had an office in the classroom take to the kids, during summer camp and he was like “that is really cool sis, but we have to worry about all of the George Zimmerman’s right here in our city on every corner.” I was like brother that was so deep, “can you elaborate.” He said, “Sis when I come back, I will. I want to pick this young lady up. She’s stranded, and it’s hot outside. I want to make sure she gets home safely.” So, he lost his life trying to make sure, somebody who he didn’t know like that was safely rode home to their house, and so when the media steps in..What I wanted to tell you about the media and the police, what I learned. I learned that whenever the police department puts out a narrative the media sticks to it. It don’t matter if they find out decades later when that person was executed that the first narrative that they put out they going to keep saying it, like now. Knowing that we are calling these killing cops out, and knowing that these are road cops, right, but every-time the media puts my brother story out there they always say, there was a struggle, there was a fight. It wasn’t no fight. The only people who were fighting were the men and women that were killing my brother. My poor brother was trying to fight for his life and meaning scream, get up, it is fight or flight. I am not going to stay here and let you kill me, when I see that you are trying to take my life. Like please, somebody help me. The narrative of the story is oh, no there was a big fight and struggle, and �then the crazy part is the media made my brother to be this real big negro. That is how they always make it out to be. Like how they said Tamir Rice was so big and huge; the officer didn’t realize that this was a little 13 year old boy that we are dealing. Oh, he was so big in stature. So, we are these big negros no matter what. You know what I’m saying, but they don’t talk about the big black house negroes that killed my brother. Louise is weighing 285 pounds, the house negro, um David Louis, is weighing 315 pounds, sitting on my dying brother back and putting all of his weight on my brother in the slave position. They call the slave position, the hogtie, I call it the slave position. We know how they carried slaves back in the day, chained and shackled. When they was going to hang him and execute him, they had my brother in that slave position, and they let David Louis finish him off. They let other men and women hit and kick him, and at no point they called for help for him, my brother. We didn’t get that call that nobody wants to get saying you loved one was murdered. Can you please come down here. I literally, had it not been for the grace of God, I literally had to feel my brother’s pain in my body at exactly 7:00 that lined up, when he was getting murdered. I felt pain on the left side of my body, if I could describe it. It felt like someone broke my neck. I felt cramps, back kicks. Like that pain, was excruciating. I literally feel on the floor, and once I got up; the pain lasted 10 minutes, and I’m thinking like what in the world has happened to me; I’m fine now. Instantly, I’m like oh, I could not grab my cell-phone quick enough to call my brother to check on him. I was like something is not right, and had it not been for God doing this. When, I say you talking about the policing, they just execute us, and we see the after the uprising they see now they have this consent decree going on or whatever her. I’m not consenting to anything, I am not going, and I feel like at the end of the day they are going to do what they want to do, anyway. It’s not the matter of you have to sign here, they are not asking for our permission, but at the end of the day I feel like everybody should take this tone. Since, Baltimore did the big uprise and things of that nature, we should be the ones to set this tone all over the world, so they can look back on Baltimore and say you know what.. Those folks told us straight to our face that the devil is a lie, and we are not taking anything short of criminal charges. Go back out of our face with that foolishness. We are not consenting to anything, so if we all stood strong trust me things would change. Then they would feel uncomfortable, because they wouldn’t know what is next. It is sad that people have to feel uncomfortable to do what is right sometimes, and it is disgusting but it is what it is. It’s life. Sha’Von: ​Yeah, That is a lot. I am glad that you are protesting. I am glad that you are active in the community, informing and educating everyone on these issues; because like you said it’s sad that when people feel uncomfortable that is when people want to act. Tawanda: ​ That’s when they want to do something or that is when they want to pretend like they’re doing something. To me, I feel like the only reason why movements.. At first with the Black Lives Matter Movement.. To me I feel like yeah it’s good, basically it started acknowledging and waking people up about the hashtags. With the hashtags to me, that is leaving that thumb print, that forensic thumbprint through the internet, because you know that Social Media, and everything like that, every time we use that hashtag you’re leaving that trail-a-way forever. Someone can just google, and they can see whatever, like you know, so all �of that is cool. But, just like I say we are more than hashtags and body bags. We are more than being 6 ft in the dirt and pictures on the t shirt. We are more than that. Our lives matter, and it matters to us. It don’t matter to the people who are killing us. And so, we you got these 3 young ladies, and I am not taking credit from them, thank goodness that they doing something, but they made this movement start for us with the hashtags. I’m talking about the movement when you are out in the street fighting, like I’m fighting. I’m not taking, I am away from the hashtags; I am away from all of that. You know, what I’m saying, because at the end of the day. All they try to do now is all lives matter, and they use that and they use the Black Lives Matter on the Black on Black Crime, but at the end of the day people need to step outside, I really try to educate my people, and it really irks to the core when I hear Black folks say you know what I don’t see yall holding up signs when we kill each other. Well, my thing to you sister or brother if you feel some type of way, then you go out there and hold up the sign. I will literally, come and support you. I will take half of my supporters, if not all of them and we will come out there and do it. I got a West Wednesday baby, but there is Monday, and all the other days of the week available for you to do your thing, but at the end of the day that has nothing to do with this. It’s like mixing oil and water together. It don’t mix. You cannot sit up there and talk about the conversation about Black on Black crime versus officers who are killing us. At the end of the day, you gotta send that box for one, Asians kill Asians, Caucasians kill Caucasians, they don’t call that caucasian on caucasian crime or Asian on Asian crime. Why are we placed in that box? We are placed in that box, because when they brutalize us or kills us it's just like they can have that little spilt to justify it. It’s like yall killing each other. Hmm..we can do this, and that has nothing to do with it. At the end of the day, we pay you sir, Mr., or Mam to do your job and that is to serve and protect us. We don’t pay little Johnny or little Henry to go and kill nobody, and folks need to get rea, because at the end of the day just because someone gets killed in your community, and its like a real bad shooting and you still going to have people caught. How dare you assume that it is another Black person. How dare you assume that? We are so naive to what is really going on. That is why I was saying that, and it brings me back to the point of why movements don’t get so far, because you got people doing stuff over here and people doing something over there instead of us going together; one cause, one purpose, one fight. If we all rolled like than man, when I tell you that we would shut it down. [16:43]. Completely, shut down their money, spend in out black community, support each other, and that one cause, one purpose, one fight, man things could change overnight. Things who change completely. You would have CNN back here or back wherever we are doing this real strong cause. They will be like oh, wow they are really sticking to it. For one, the didn't expect for my family, the West family to stick to being out here this long. They thought, because what happens is, you have something to happen that is devastating and then you’ll….they will have it one a piece of paper like an office killed somebody, so we expect a protest to happen, we expect it to last a couple of weeks, and that’s it move on to the next murder. Not when you murder Tyrone West. You gotta be kidding me. I’m calling a spade, a spade, and the craziest part is everyone is so corrupt. Just last week, I am going to put the Mayor on blast and she needs to be, because she sits up there and she goes and jumps out there and plays this good woman on when the camera are flashing, oh and my heart goes out and I’m doing this in Annapolis. Yeah, she did go testify in Annapolis, but you’re too late mam. You’re too late. Don’t have half step. When I say to late, because it’s never too �late to do anything, and I don't want to sound contradicting, but if your heart's not in it keep it moving. You got to be serious, because at the end of the day before Freddie Gray got murdered. We could not get this woman to even talk about police brutality. I remember, I would never forget they had this police brutality meeting. A police brutality meeting, and she goes up there..and she won’t even address police brutality. She said before I can even have that conversation, I have to know why isn't nobody.. Umm you know that Black on Black crime stuff. It’s a little 3 year old girl that just got murdered. Why is nobody is saying anything. My heart goes out to, because I feel some type of why when anyone gets murdered, because to me a murder is a murder, because at the end of the day your life is changed forever. I just had my sister, Danielle, lose her brother, Danny, who was giving back to the community. Danny Barnes he was giving back to the community, and he was gunned down. You know, outside around the corner from his home. Nonetheless, this sister is really going through it. She was out at West Wednesday supporting me and supporting the cause before she lost her baby brother. So, I know her trigger. I’m trying to help her get through that. We all we got. Like my brother moon say, “We all we got.” You know what I’m saying, but back to the Mayor don’t pretend like you are rolling with us. When at first my brother was brutally murdered, you ducked my family off for 6 months, you wouldn't talk to us, and the crazy part you stepped over my Mom inside of a meeting. She was breaking down..she needed to be.. Matter of fact that call the ambulance to take my Aunt to the hospital, and I call her mom because she raised me and my brother. But, they literally took my Aunt to the hospital, and she stepped over my Aunt crying didn’t even try to say mam I know you are going through something and she runned over and this is on Baltimore Bloc, you can Youtube Baltimore B l o c and you can see it. You would see the may went it and stepped over her just to cut my Uncle off. My uncle was talking about police brutality, but to make her presence known she literally had to cut him off to say we need to let other people talk. My uncle was the first person in that room, because we broke off in broke our sessions and my Uncle George was the first one in that room and what she did, she cut him off. So, that’s the foolishness that we deal with. It was to the point..so..like put out a letter when my brother first got killed we chased her down for 6 months. Thank God, and I am thankful for any and everything that someone due. She wrote the medical examiner’s office stating that look why haven't yall given this family the autopsy, you know, we want you to do this. So, once she did that that is when they came with the foolishness. But, my whole point is that I reached out to her and just last week before a Town Hall Meeting. I believe it was on Thursday, or something like that but nevertheless, before she had the Town Hall Meeting I called her because, thank goodness Elijah Cummings, The Honorable Elijah Cummings, finally after playing the dog and pony show with my family, he finally said that he would write a letter for this family. You know what i'm saying, to ask the Honorable Loretta Lynch to open back up Tyrone West case. At the end of the day, all of them know, we all know, even people that don't even live in my city know that so called investigations 2 and 3 were some foolishness. It was a basic regurgitation of the killer cops. None of the witness were mentioned, and none of the victims who were victimized by the same killer cops. [21:25] None of this was in your reports, so how is this was in your reports, so how is this transparent. None of that was transparent. A bunch of foolishness. A bunch of baloney. Like really? So, with that being said, so I called the Mayor and asked her…. I called, because I remember when I saved everybody’s number, and her secretary, Kevin Harris, �reached out to my family um to sit us down after 6 months to meet with us. I saved his phone number. So, I decided to called it back, just last week. I called it back, and said um..and it was um..a young lady who answered, but it was for the Mayor. She answered and said this is the secretary, and the mayor is not here. Would you like to leave a message? And I left one, saying could you please tell the Mayor that if she want to help my family, because she said that every time that we show up and the cameras are around she pretend like she want to do something, because the last time she said that if the state’s attorney is willing to reopen your brother’s case, then I am willing to do another um.. Independent investigation; because I already did one. I said that that was some independent foolishness. That was nothing like you need to do a real one. With that being said, so I told her basically because she wrote a letter, and I called her out at the meeting when they were pretending to do a dog and pony show like they want to do something to keep the community safe, meanwhile killing cops are running the beat. Meanwhile, the officers that killed Freddie Gray executed him. We know that Freddie Gray did not kill himself. Meanwhile, they are getting audited. They got back pay. All of this foolishness, but meanwhile, Freddie Gray family is messed up for the rest of their life, and Freddie Gray is dead resting in his grave; and I don’t think that he is resting, and people talking and how can you rest in peace and there is no peaceful justice. How can you? How can you? How is it humanly possible, or heavenly possible, when all of that is said. After the meeting, do you know she didn’t.. And I asked her, you know you got my phone calls, because I looked at her in the eye, and this is on my Facebook page, and she never answered. She got the Commissioner to say two words, but she never answered me. The whole time I’m talking, she is like this on her cellphone...texting. Texting people. Do you really want to text while I’m telling you, while I’m crying and giving you a sobbing testimony about my brother being executed the worse case of..to me, because of the police. At the end of the day, when people are getting shot gunned down, which is horrible. You talking about men and women beating to death one unarmed person. They are hiding video footage. If people saw the way they beat my brother to death; do you know the whole world would be right here in the city trying to.. In another uprise. The way that they killed, executed my brother. Beat, stomped peppered sprayed him, and I never seen a video like that before. You know, I haven’t seen my brother’s video, but when the witnesses tell me what happened and you hear the testimony, you can only imagine what that video will look like. With them crying and saying that they tried to stop it, then with me hearing that Abdul Saleem, who was the first victim saying that these killer cops came up with no warning and pulled him over. He was saying the same thing that my brother was saying. Good evening officers; what are you doing? They talking about he didn’t have his seat belt on, but yet he had to unbuckle himself while they are pulling him by his head, thank God that he didn’t have hair; and they are beating him with his baby being held hostage in the back seat over an hour watching him. They would not let the neighbors get him. The father said, look I want you to give my son to Ronald Mcdonald or Martha Stewart, whoever the parent says give that child to, you suppose to comply. They didn’t listen to Abdul. He was saying give him to my neighbor. They said no, if you wife don’t get down here in a half of an hour your child will be going to CPS. After you beat this man up, scare his son half to death, you going to threaten, and had his wife not flew through traffic and got her baby son he might have been in CPS. [25:10] This is what we go through. It is real. This is not a game, and that is why I have a problem with people that try to use our pain for their gain. Like �even with our new elect Hillary. Like I am not supporting her, and you know I am not supporting no Donald Trump, he can keep it moving. I am not supporting Hillary, because she is tip-toeing around the real issues. She wants to use all of the moms, that have been tragedy affected by their loved ones getting killed by officers, or people like George Zimmerman. He wasn’t even an officer, but they had that stand your ground foolishness, and he executed Trayvon Martin with no repercussions. This man is still getting in trouble til this day. We got Hillary, who want to get up all of the moves and put them today, and she is lucky that she didn’t call Tawanda Jones. He would have put her on blast in front of CNN. They know not to call me for no foolishness, because I am going to call a spade, a spade. I’m not going to hold back, because I am going to say Hillary why you are talking about gun control, which is all cool and good. Let’s talk about the people who is holding the gun. Lets talk about the people who is killing us. Lets talk about this police brutality that's out of control. What are you going to do about that? I have not heard her say anything about reforming the police. To me they can’t be reformed. He can’t be. I’m sorry like, I use to believe in all of that; like, maybe, if you get them some cameras. We getting executed on film. On film, and nothing is happening. So, to me that is nothing; we need to knock it all down, and build it back up. We need to have a say-so of who we want in our community. We need to be the ones hiring and firing people. That is how we need to be. That is the only way it is going to work. We don’t even need them for real. We can control our own community. We can control our own community. See, we are going to people that need us, and we got the power, but it is like a mind game. They know we got power, but they can’t keep us down here. Right down here. So, we won’t rise up. So, we won’t come and be the best people like all of our babies. Like when I see our black, smart and intelligent kids they get bored with these teacher’s lesson plans, therefore they want to throw them on drugs. They want to see oh, little Johnny won’t sit still..like no! You are boring him. He’s bored; step your game up. That lesson plan tweek it. Give him something else. I bet you he will be just fine, but this is what they do. To me they are killing us on all levels. It is with the police. It is with the food that we eat. It is with the way that we think. It’s with the housing. It is with all of that stuff. It’s just horrible. Sha’Von:​ Um..yep. Just for context, can you say what neighborhood your brother’s incident took place in? Tawanda: ​It um..happened on Keaton Moore and Callaway. Sha’Von:​ What is the purpose of the consent form, because I know you spoke about the consent form? What is the purpose? Tawanda: ​The consent form is a consent decree to where as though, we basically to me, anything that is consent to me is giving permission. I am not giving you permission to kill our voice, and basically to me. Alright, so after the uprise the send the Department of Justice in, so we thought they was going to hold people criminally responsible. So, they like the Department of Justice is coming in, and they up with this hundred and 163 pages, which by the way wasn’t even half of the stuff that we go through. It was horrible, so you see in those pages..I don’t know if have gotten the chance to look at the pages? �Sha’Von: ​No, I never heard of it. Tawanda:​ Oh, wow. I am going to sure that I get you that, so keep in contact with me. It is horrible. It is all of the abuse that we have suffered by law enforcement officers, and in their it talks about when they um.. Rape people, civilians, and when they went after gay and lesbian people. Dehumanize them, and beat them. Some of them were sexually assaulted. Um.. it was horrible. It was disgusting. You know, they basically deprived us on our human rights that they want to come in now, and ask us of these ideas and forms of how can we change this and we are going to work with them to. I ain’t trying to change nothing. You know what what they did. You know who they are. Go lock them up. That’s my tone and I ain’t trying to hear none of that foolishness of what you are trying to talk, so you can skip this city, and who else is going to be the next uprise. So, this is going to keep on happening. So, what happened to me, they’re like the middle man. They come to pretend like they’re going to save us. Nobody is going to save us. We have to save ourselves. Until, we save ourselves; man we are doomed. We have to save ourselves. Ain’t nobody coming to save us. Jesus Christ ain’t even walking down to save us. He gives us the God given strength and knowledge within us. [29:55] Prayer without works in death. Nothing. Trust me I just left church. I had to go home and change to my brother’s shirt, and take my dress off. But, prayer without work is nothing. If I just sat back and prayed, like oh, God; but God gives you answers and ideas, and going through God’s purpose can be painful. It can be very painful. Very painful, but at the end of the day it mean something. It mean something, but we have to do work. We have to do work. We can’t sit comfortably on our couch, and then what kills be literally is when you see a man or a woman get executed. Right there on the street. Right there in front of you in broad daylight. So, they not even doing like back in the day, they use to kill us in the alleyway when nobody's looking, beat you up; but man they do it in front of everybody. So, with this being said, why do we sit out there and the first thing that we do is pull out our phones, videoing, and videoing the brother getting their head blown off or beat down. Shame on you. AIn't nobody, what happened to that man’s first aid treatment? What happened to you putting your body in line saying you better not hit him again. You better not, because now they have to stop hitting him or her to hit you, and they are not going to want to do that. Like you literally have to put the camera down and put your body up, and say oh no you’re not going to hit my sister or brother no more. When I the heat 83 year old woman in West Baltimore get beat down and where was the brother’s at. The was suppose to step up on the front line like I wish you would hit her again. Like and I am not trying to encourage any nobody to fight the police that is not my message but what I am saying is don’t let them come in our communities, where we have to live with our families and just come in and kill us and all we do is sit up there and hold up a dang on camera. Like no. Do something. I don't even be seeing people and this is so crazy that people is so use to holding up cameras and what happened to the first aid for the person. Atleast give them first aid. Atleast get them a towel to stop the bleeding. Don't just hold up the camera. At Least call 911, and while you are calling 911. Use that phone to call 911, and take that video footage, because at the end of the day we are going to need that too. We know they are not going to do nothing with our footage. They are not going to do anything. So, when you talk about this conversation about crookedness, and we must �have to talk about the crooked judges, the crooked lawyers, the crooked doctors, the crooked mayors, the crooked police officers, and the list goes on. The list goes on, and to me I just feel like they are the biggest gang in America, because they are a legalized gang. They get away with that. See with our gang members, they kill somebody or whatever they getting time and they will never see the streets again. Once, they get caught, and then they always have the commissioner come out and say this person is a bad guy and I threw him under the jail. Throw them killer cops under the jail. Throw them under the jail. Sha’Von:​ That’s true. Tawanda: ​It is crazy. Sha’Von:​ It is a lot to take in all at one time. Tawanda:​ It is too much. I call them the JJE boys, judge, jury and executioners. That’s what they are. They do all of that at one time. They want to take your life for making a wrong turn, they can; and they are going to get away with it. Sha’Von:​ Yep, so my next question is what inspired your engagement within community, and can you share you um..projects or events in the community that you have held such as West Wednesday. Tawanda:​ Yes. So, what has inspired me is like I say I am my brother’s keeper. I love my brother beyond death. Beyond death. I love him even more, so with that being said that is what have inspired the love that I have for my brother, and not just him but for all of my brothers and sisters. For all of my loved ones that lost someone. Like when I look at Gina Best, her daughter was executed. He daughter was executed with her baby in the back seat of the car. This mother has to know that her baby was executed with her grandbaby in the back seat of the car. Maurice Donald Johnson, his mother called for treatment. He was gunned down in minutes. Anthony Anderson was killed by the same unit. There are grandmothers out her fighting. He son was executed. Gary Hopkins he was executed. His mother is fighting out here. It is to many of us fighting out here. Beverly, that is my sister, this sister is out here in DC. Her son was a teacher. He was beat to death. Similarly, like my brother. He was executed by a special force of officers, and the crazy part is they send these special units to execute us. It is designed that no one never ask yourself what is the typical regular police office. It is always the jump out boys or the special forces. Ryin Gaines. Thank God her mother is out here. Korean Gaines this beautiful sister knew her rights, and she was executed. She was executed. It was like a pack of now-and laters you pull her over and she talks to you and let you know that I know my rights and you are not going to do anything to me. You are going to have to kill me, because I know my rights; and I am not going to let you do nothing to me. You can’t do this and you can’t do that. So, they should her you know what we are going to come right to your home, your most intimate setting, with your babies and you hear her baby son say that I tried to run and they shot at me. That is horrible. That is horrible. That is disgusting. They going to make is seem like this girl was crazy. �Well guess what I am crazy too, because I am standing up here fighting for my people. I am fighting for my rights, and just human life. This is horrible, so the events that we had besides West Wednesday. We have literally been..besides Christopher Brown’s mom will never be the same. He wasn’t even one of the ones like..he was with a group of people being teenagees playing a little knock on the door and run type of thing. That was not warranted for a death sentence being choked out in an illegal choke hold. The same illegal choke hold that used on Eric Garner. Nothing was done. Michael Brown body left out there. They left my brother out there for 5 hours. Uncovered. Horrible. They wouldn’t even leave a dog. If you hit a dog and you call 311 and I guarantee you with a half of an hour they would come clean that dog up. If a citizen don’t come and cover it up. So, they have more rights than humans. I have seen police officers in the city get took down for doing something to an animal. Don’t get me wrong, I love my animals too; but c’mon an animal life over an human life. That is sickening. So, we have been to testify in Annapolis and we have gotten the Chris Brown law passed with this beautiful mother, and with our beautiful delegate, Jill Carter. I think God for warriors like her for not pretending. Pastor Herbert Brown who is really not pretending. Brother Roger who is really not pretending. People who really care about the community. You know there is so many and the list goes on. My brother Boom. He is always out there going to the prison talking and trying to be the voice of the voiceless that is behind the bars. You know, because he knows how it feels to be confined in a small box and charged with something that you didn’t do; and for him to feed the homeless. Like my brother JC. He’s getting a group of people together, a group of folks together and talking about race, an unforgettable conversation. My brother’s are behind all of that. He sits them around and forces us to talk, like how do you feel about racism, and makes us have this uncomfortable conversation. Thank God for him, because he have been bringing different people to West Wednesdays. Thank God to everybody. Thank God to my..I call him my Uncle Bill. He comes out to West Wednesday, and he use to teach people in my family. He was..he taught 2, both, of my cousins in my family. He literally stands out there to get and the the list goes on. My sister, Bev; the list goes on. My brother Pium. He has been the real media. Baltimore Bloc has been the real media. When the cameras cut off, they are the real media that has the camera on rolling and saying this is what really is going on. So, I mean the list goes on. Sha’Von:​ Okay. My next question is have you seen any change in Baltimore as a result of these events? Tawanda: ​Well..to me I haven’t really seen too much change. Only thing that I could really say that happened big was when we got Greg Bernstein out of office. You know, because he..after Anthony Anderson was the outgoing State’s Attorney. When he looked at after Anthony Anderson’s family and laughed in their face and told them even though Anthony Anderson’s death was ruled a homicide. He looked at that family’s face and disrespected their family and say that he wasn’t charging anybody. He did that same thing a year later, when that same unit came and killed my brother. He told my family don’t get comfortable in our chair, and my words to him was you don’t get comfortable. I bet you that we get you out of here. You don’t do your job and we get you out of here. So, that is how I feel. �Sha’Von:​ Okay, so now I am going to transition into questions regarding the uprising protest. So, um does the...Well.. you kind of touched on it a little bit, but does the Freddie Gray incident surprise you? Tawanda: ​No, it don’t surprise me at all. Freddie Gray like I said name was just mentioned only, because they care more about building burning then the lives. Like I said, I am not condoning anybody to burn down buildings where we got to live at. I am not condoning that. I am not, but I am saying a life has more value, than material things; and with that being said we got brothers and sisters now facing 10 to 20 years for poking a water house or putting something on fire. When you have killer cops walking to be. There gotta be something wrong with that. If the law is made up. It suppose to be treated fairly by everybody. They suppose to uphold it and if you don’t uphold it. You suppose to have consequences. Sha’Von​: What was your initial reaction when you heard about his incident? Tawanda:​ Well first of all before I head about his death. When Freddie Gray was critically injured in the hospital and I thank God for my brother, Pieume, from Baltimore Bloc. He took me over there to meet Freddie Gray’s family. Personally, we met them over there and we did the Baltimore Bloc, and this is the stuff that the news don’t mention. Baltimore Bloc reached out the the family. We did a big protest before the uprise, and we, I, was talking to his mother saying sister hold on. You know, I said I been out here fighting for this amount of weeks and days; and we going to get justice. I said, you son will be alright just pray and once I learned that we met up on that Saturday, and we learned that Sunday that he announced that he was dead it was like everytime I hear about another victim, it makes me think about my brother. And then, another case that you won’t hear about is Keith Davis Jr. Keith Davis Jr. surely after Freddie Gray. Keith Davis Jr. was in the wrong place at the wrong time, but instead of the city saying you know what, we messed up. We got the wrong guy. Let's get this man help. He still sitting behind the walls with bullets. He got shot in the face. He need medical attention. He got a bullet sitting in the back of his neck. You can see it literally moving. People are telling me like, you can literally see it moving, and thank God for his warrior fiancee, Kelly, she is fighting. I met her too. She is fighting. She is fighting for her fiancee's life; and it is real because I feel like if Tyrone West would have survived what kind of lives would they say. They lied on a death man when he was dead. Imagine if he would have survived. What trumped up charges would they have put on him, because he survived. What type of charges would they have threw on Anthony Anderson, if he would have survived. Marcus Donnis Johnson, Gary Hopkins and the list goes on. I had me a beautiful sister who lost 2 of her kids in the system. Each time. Her beautiful daughter and her son and it is disgusting. I am tired. I don’t wish nobody into this family. I don’t wish anybody. When you come on this side my heart goes out. Everytime my sister, Lauren, who lives in I think California. She’s out of town, but she makes beautiful buttons and they send us buttons and put us with other families. My heart goes out to them, because I’m like I don’t want you in this family this way. I rather for you to be a supporter, but I don’t want you in this family feeling this way with pain that ain't going to never go away. It ain't going nowhere. I don’t wish this on anybody. �Sha’Von:​ Umm..my next question is how would you describe the protest? Was it a culmination of all of the victims of police brutality? [43:30] Tawanda:​ Absolutely, which protest? The one ..um.. Sha’Von:​ The uprise. Tawanda:​ Okay. Let me tell you what the media is not going to tell you. When I tell you it was such a beautiful thing even thought it was horrible under the horrible circumstances. It was such a beautiful epic thing to wear as though I saw so many brothers. I saw one the most beautiful thing is when I saw a bunch of people who had nothing in common be out there for the common goal of life, and saying we are not taking this. I saw all of the gang members together holding hands. I saw the Muslims, the Christians all holding hands. I saw everybody, and it was peaceful. And before the uprise even happened, I literally was there, we literally was there I could never forget we met in Gilmore homes, and I felt like I walked a whole century; because there was like so much walking involved. I literally packed my care in Gilmore homes, even though it wasn’t that far, but my legs were hurting so bad that day. We literally walked from Gilmore homes all the way downtown or whatever, and our goal was to end up like literally be the harbor, and things like that. You know and to just talk about it. It was so peaceful. We were singing songs, and it was just so peaceful. I remember an agitator, um tried to kick over a trash can. It was a caucasian male. He kicked over the trashcan; and I remember a brother saying oh no. Get it up. When I say it got that trash can up. Put it to the side and put it back where it was at, and kept it moving; but where it broke out at and the media won't report, I will never forget. We were coming back down, I will never forget, I was by city hall, and basically after the Orioles game was letting out, so you have a bunch of people coming from a game, and there was some under the influence of alcohol. A lot of them was under the influence of alcohol. Just watched the game, drunk and coming out of the game. So, you have the Black Lives Matter people, Black Lives Matter, everyone is chanting and it was not just Black Lives Matter you had like different coalitions from all over come there and march like everything was shut down. What happened was this white man, who was under the influence of alcohol he said “F Freddie Gray;” and we said “F Freddie Gray” brothers were like woah hold up. The people emotional like what do you mean, and we done seen this man get buried. So, then it turned up. [46:00] Brothers were still able to cool that situation down, but you wouldn't know that all hell broke out. When one of the caucasian males took a bottle and tossed it into the crowd; and when it hit somebody that is when everything broke out. But the unique part about it, and what they are not going to report is when people started kicking those police cars like even though you see them stomping and kicking, but they don't let you hear the words they were saying, the audio version. The words that they were saying, when I heard brothers kicking and saying, “this is for __, who got killed by the police back in 11972.” This is for Tony who got killed. This for Anthony. This is for blaise blaise. They were like kicking the property letting all of that anger out from the way that the system had treated us for decades. They let that out. It was like temper tantrum. It was almost like a child throwing a tantrum, and just letting it out. But then the crazy part, so when they destroy a police car when a game lets out. All of the fans they destroy property. Oh, they �are just some rowdy fans, but then when my brothers do it they get life. Do the samething for life. They’re thugs. They’re this. It is horrible it is disgusting. Sha’Von:​ It is and I hate that. Um..what was your media coverage of the events? Do you feel like the news and newspaper reported accurately and fairly on the events? Tawanda: ​No, they did not report accurately and fairly at all. I don't think so at all. I want to get a shoutout to real news, because I think they reported accurately, because they were on the ground doing ground work. They wasn't like changing your words. They were like really talking to people that they know. Local advocates not activists, you know that are coming here acting like they’re apart of being here. I’m look at these faces like wait a minute, we never seen you. You from where? You know but with that being said, you know I don't think they're good because they pumped up all of the stuff that don't need to be pumped up and devalued the stuff that needed to be pumped up. They didn't show like when people in the community, church mothers, and the kids and the youth came back to clean up the neighborhoods. They didn't show shorty on his grill out there grilling hotdogs and hamburgers while people clean up. They didn't show Pastor Hebrew going out there. They didn't show my brother, Wolf, going out there talking to people and making sure everybody straight. They didn't show none of this. When Boom was out there talking positive and they didn't show when JC was out there talking positive. But, they showed oh, they hyped it up. This is what is going on they put this on fire. The put this on fire. They sure didn't show, when we had a community meeting the very next day. When I heard elderly folks, elderly people don't have a reason to lie; they were saying how they say police officers and firefighters going in a RiteAid around there way that someone broke into. The bussed a window and they saw the police officers and firefighters coming out with big things out of the store and putting them in their cars. The didn't show that. I guess they don't have that footage either. They not going to show that. That is something they don't going to show. Sha’Von: ​How would you describe communications with the Baltimore City police before and after the uprising? Tawanda: ​Before it always sucked, but it got even worse after. It was very disrespectful, because like I said they got mad. Despite, the murders went up. We had 300 and something bodies. If you noticed, and you can do, I mean systemic don't lie. I mean you could see numbers. Look at the statistics. You will see that before the uprise we always had our little murders, and we might have made like 147 murders within that whole year before, you know, but how are you going to double that. Triple that. You know what I’m saying. They literally turned their back like you know what this is the Wild Wild West out here. We ain't doin nothing. Yall want to talk about police brutality? We are not doing nothing. Sha’Von:​ Um..so you spoke about a community meeting being held the next day after the uprising? Can you elaborate on that? �TJ: ​So, basically the concerned citizens, I love that my brother Mr. Leo, because he’s a concerned citizen, and Christopher and Christopher Erving they always have these community meetings that we talk about real issues that are affecting us. I could never forget, that we are at a little recreation center in West Baltimore. I remember specifically and precisely going that meeting and they were talking about what happened and ways to kinda, and if you see something ain't right kinda deescalate type of thing. Like if you see something go out there and put your body in line, and say look this ain't right and community type of things. An old woman stood up and said wait a minute I didn't see anyone in my community doing that besides the police. We say the police climbing in the windows. The brothers were telling them that we are not going to let them, because we saw some young kids walking, because when we first saw them throw the brick through the window; but then the brothers checked them real quick and said that my grandmother is on medication yall not gonna mess it up for her and her prescriptions. She said that she lived in her senior citizen building was literally directly to see that in and out of the Rite Aids, and she literally seen officers with uniforms on saying that she seen them bring things, objects and belongs out of Rite Aid's with everything being blocked off with yellow tape so no one can come in and out, but them. The news doesn't report that. So, I was shocked when I heard the elderly woman say that. I was like wow and writing down my loans like wow. Interesting like. Sha’Von​: So, has there been an increase in like grassroot activism? TJ: Well yes, well I see that there been grassroot since that because when I think the birth of BUC, you know, Baltimore United. They got together with a bunch of, which I think is an excellent thing. They got together with a bunch of coalitions to work together, like I said for that one cause, one fight type of thing giving back so I think that was the birth of BUC when that happened. Sha’Von​: So, we are going to start wrapping up now, so I am going to ask you about questions about the future. Tawanda​: Ok. Sha’Von​: Overall, how do you view the events surrounding Freddie Gray’s death? Do you think that the city has recovered from these events? And do you think that there is still work that need to be done? Tawanda​: There is a whole lot of work that needs to be done, and no we did not recover; because at the end of the day until people are held accountable. To me, it was like a big smack in out face, and then for the simple fact that like okay. When all of the charges got brought up and none of them stopped. They just walked away, and then for them to make a mockery of the whole situation; and say oh, when have you ever know that they have tried to go after a state's attorney and be like oh I’m suing her. I am suing you for defamation of character. Like really, didnt you kill somebody. What part did I miss. You literally killed him, then whatever. The crazy �part is that irks me about it is moving forward they rather than blame and van for Freddie Gray murder than humans. Like that is disgusting. Sha’Von​: That is crazy. In your opinion how do you view race relations after the events here in Baltimore? Are there any ways to improve these relationships? Tawanda​: To me there is always a way to improve any and everything, and the way is talking about it. Having open conversations and making people feel uncomfortable and bringing it. To me I see like a lot of people like when something big happens you will see who was for you and who was against you like it is a time when you have to a choice a side, because you can no longer play the middle real comfortable. When they with you, they like oh girl i'm with you and I support you cause and the soon when you turn your back, oh I don't know why those folks are out there. No, like now you are forced. Either you are rolling with us or you are not. Now i’m glad and I see who’s really rolling with us and who’s not. So, I see a lot of people like what a minute I thought you was on our side. Oh, I see how it is. Sha’Von​: What is one thing that you want the future generations to take from this interview? Tawanda​: I want them to take that we have power. They may have guns and weapons but you have a voice. You have a voice and you have choice even though some of our choice are limited, but do not let your circumstance or situation predict your outcome. If you believe strongly that something is not right be that voice of change and be that person to make a big difference. Don’t work with money. Work for your people. Remember that it is not about the income it is about the outcome and do all you can do to lift our people out. My sister, Christina Flowers, she gives back to the homeless people. You know, she want to make sure that people are sleeping good and night in their house. You got J Windler “The Warrior Lawyer,” Russell __, and it is a lot of folks that you don't hear about. That is doing good things. Its sad to say even though we don't hear these people a lot still show them love. Show them love and always remember do everything in love. At the end of the day if you dont, its not going to amount to nothing; and that is what keeps me stable and grounded. The love that I have for my brother and my community keeps me grounded. That is why I don't wish bad things on people. I don't go after these people with a hatred attitude and they know this. They don't like me, but they got to respect me. I’m not going at them, like oh, I hate you I wish something. No, I'm going after you saying no I don't like how you treat my people and what are you going to do. You need to fix it and I’m not going to sugarcoat it. What are you going to do. So, just go after people with a loving heart and respect. Dont pull your brother or sister down. Lift them up, cause that is what’s wrong with us. We doing a lot of beating us down. She’s not doing this right and that right. You can do it better then do it better. Show us. Do it better. Support each other. Sha’Von​: Thank you for the interview, and thank you for you words. Tawanda​: Thank you. � https://www.baltimoreuprising2015.org/files/original/60d5be5794288175e43a30ed244a23f3.pdf 8291da3312073c2182fe5976f5b0bfc3 PDF Text Text �� Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Preserve the Baltimore Uprising Archive Intern Oral Histories Collection Description An account of the resource Oral histories conducted by the interns of the Preserve the Baltimore Uprising Archive Project. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Preserve the Baltimore Uprising Archive Project interns at the Maryland Historical Society Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available MdHS Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Micah Connor, Sha'Von Terrell, Sterling Warren, Sydney Cook Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource MP3, PDF, JPG Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Sha'Von Terrell Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Tawanda Jones Location The location of the interview MdHS Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Yes Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 56:30 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Tawanda Jones Interview Subject The topic of the resource Demonstration / event Description An account of the resource Tawanda Jones interviewed by Sha'Von Terrell. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Sha'Von Terrell for the Preserve the Baltimore Uprising Archive Project Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available MdHS Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 10/9/16 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Sha'Von Terrell Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource MP3, jpeg, and PDF Baltimore media police brutality Tyrone West Uprising https://www.baltimoreuprising2015.org/files/original/d39e27a60e062d4f83c338adabc70295.mp3 421bd3df0901f912f34f26e1daa75a15 https://www.baltimoreuprising2015.org/files/original/df3c6e18245f00d8ddb2abe843264b4b.JPG d145073618f114a6dc280c5880476f21 https://www.baltimoreuprising2015.org/files/original/96cfcb74d472ed5699c0abdffcee98b3.pdf afecfb419bbd938650aad12db3261f2e PDF Text Text Preserve the Baltimore Uprising 2015 Online Archive Transcript for Interview with Professor James Dator (Interview begins at :03 seconds.) Micah Connor: Good evening. I am Micah Connor interviewing Professor James Dator at Goucher College on October twenty-sixth ugh, twenty-sixteen and we are here for the Preserve the Baltimore Uprising Twenty-Fifteen Online Archive project in association with the Maryland Historical Society um, and so I’d like to start the interview off ugh, Professor Dator, if I might address youProfessor James Dator: Yes. MC: -as such, with some generic background questions just so we can get to little ugh, learn about you um, and the first question I’d like to ask is may you please share your full name and age? PJD: Sure. My full name is James Dator and I’m assuming you don’t need a middle name- ​ ​ MC: (​laughs) No, that’s fine. PJD: (​laughs) James Dator, and I am ugh thir-ugh, about to be thirty-nine years old. MC: Oh! Fantastic. Um, ugh, the second question would be where are you from originally and where do you currently reside? PJD: I grew up just outside of ugh, Philadelphia, and I currently reside in Baltimore City. MC: Oh. Are you enjoying your time in Baltimore? PJD: Oh absolutely. MC: That’s fantastic. Um, ugh, what has been your experience like then, living and or working in Baltimore ugh, prior to the events um, surrounding Freddie Gray’s death in twenty-fifteen? PJD: So my general just experience with the cityMC: Yeah. PJD: -or yeah. So um, you know coming-I’ll, I’ll put it into a certain like, history of context, right. MC: Mhm. �PJD: So you know I grew up outside of Philadelphia but I was kind of familiar with the city ugh, and then I did my graduate work in Michigan um, which ugh, was kind of approximated of Detroit andMC: Hmm. PJD: -so I’ve always kind of lived in the satellite of um (​knocks on table) of ugh, major cities. ​ Um, and ugh, Baltimore I think is a, ugh, ugh, sorry, interesting environment. MC: Mhm. PJD: You know, you know I teach here at Goucher College which is about Baltimore County. MC: Mhm. PJD: It’s technically not in the cityMC: Yes. PJD: -and it’s had a long ugh, kind of relationship with the cityMC: Mhm. PJD: -and so one thing I think that stands out about Baltimore, being here is that it’s clearly a very segregated place. MC: (​chuckles) PJD: I mean it is a very segregated place. Um, and ugh, and it’s deeply infused in the sort of, broader cultureMC: Mhm. PJD: -of, of, of the area, I think. And so um, something I recognize quite honestly, very early onMC: Hmm. PJD: -ugh, you know, because it’s something that I study and I think about so, right. Yeah. MC: And for clarification, for those ugh, that don’t know, what do you teach here at Goucher? PJD: So I’m a historian of ugh, I actually specialize in slavery- �MC: Mhm. PJD: -slave resistance. I teach broadly um, courses relating to race, ugh, African-American history, ugh, American historyMC: Mhm. PJD: -um, and ugh, um, other related types of coursesMC: Mhm. PJD: -so, yeah. MC: So ugh, you would say Africana Studies, to use ugh, an umbrella term? PJD: Yeah, right. MC: Mhm. PJD: Africana Studies. Yeah, absolutely. MC: Mhm. PJD: Yeah. MC: Um, ugh, so then the next question would be, and, and thank you for that explanation, is how do you view race relations ugh, especially with your previous statement? How do you view race relations in Baltimore before the eventsPJD: Mhm. MC: -following um, Gray’s death in twenty-fifteen? PJD: Um, from my perspective (​pauses) this is hard to, this is hard to describeMC: Mhm. PJD: -but I think race relations you know, this idea of, of sort of you know, the ways in which black and white people interact I think is what we’re trying to get at when we talk about that term. To me I think um, it was-it’s written on the landscapeMC: Mm. �PJD: -in Baltimore City and I think that um, you know segregations of these is a big part of it but I think that there’s also sort of mentalities that are, are, are very apparent for, for people that are aware of coming to a place like Mar-Maryland and coming to a place like Baltimore. And so for me um, I always kind of I, I kind of feel as if there is a sort of Southern quality to this regionMC: Hmm. Hmm. PJD: -right? And, and, and, and I think that’s interesting given, given the sort of middle ground statusMC: Yeah. PJD: -this middle ground status so, ugh, um, ugh, I think that kind of answers your question but I guess what I’m trying to say is that I think that um, the, the ugh, um, so-called racial tensions or tensions between blacks and whites in, and around the city um, manifest themselves in sort of everyday relationsMC: Hmm. PJD: -and sort of manifest themselves in ways of, of where sort of you know, outright hostilityMC: Mhm. PJD: -isn’t always on the table. However, I think that ugh, you know, a kind of cogent observer will-would have noticed that um, race is operating in a, in, in, a kind of everyday wayMC: Hmm. PJD: -very deeply in the city. And um, just by looking at the locus of where money is located, or where it’s not locatedMC: Mhm. PJD: -and the neighborhoods, and where private schools are versus public schools and um, the ways in which ugh, you know, various labor is kind of allocated in the cityMC: Mhm. PJD: -and um, you know different places where people shop, and etcetera. It’s very kind of deeply rootedMC: Mm. �PJD: -in this area ugh, in a, in a very almost neighborhood by neighborhood basis. MC: Mhm. PJD: You know? MC: Mhm. PJD: Um, so people talk. I remember when I moved here people would say oh, you know, we have a hundred and sem odd different neighborhoods in Baltimore and it’s fascinating. You look at all the neighborhoods, and they’re all different. MC: Yes. PJD: Right? But, they’re also really drawn by raceMC: (​chuckles) PJD: -like very deeply drawn by race. MC: Mhm. PJD: And so, so maybe the neighborhood’s different in some ways but there’s definitelyMC: Mm. PJD: -white areas and, and black areasMC: Mhm. PJD: -or whiter areas and blacker areas. And so that, that divide is, is very evident, so before um, the uprising (​clears throat) um, there was you know, this sort of everyday um, life, life of peopleMC: Excuse me (​breathes deeply.) PJD: You okay? MC: Yes. PJD: -the everyday life of people ugh, sort of revealed I think, a deeper um, ugh, race ugh, race-based kind of society- �MC: Mm. PJD: -and community. And, and I think that ugh, to me, I think ugh, um, the before and after questions-I imagine you’re going to get to the after questionMC: Yes. PJD: -you know, ugh, you can’t separateMC: Mm. PJD: -you can’t separate the before I think, you know. MC: Hmm. PJD: So, um, I don’t know. Did you want to ask a follow-up to that? (​laughs) MC: Well, you’ve hinted at something I think is interesting. PJD: Yeah. MC: So, if I can try to clarifyPJD: Yeah, sorry. (​laughs) MC: -you’re hinting at not so much a, a blatant racism, or perhaps you arePJD: Yeah. MC: -in describing these different divisionsPJD: Yeah. MC: -within neighborhoods. But you’re also saying that there’s also a very much ugh, subdued sort of racism thatPJD: Yeah, that’s right. MC: -sort of permeates throughout the city. PJD: Yeah, I mean I think from a historical point of view, I think a lot of um, the ways racism works in the post-civil rights era, and in the post-you know, really since the seventies, is that um, racism doesn’t take the overt sort of, banner of white supremacy- �MC: Hmm. PJD: -and sort of work in that outward manifestation whereby you know, you have people who are projecting that from a sort of ideologicalMC: Mhm. PJD: -point of view. It actually manifests itself, and sort of operates in society ugh, through spatial segregationMC: Mhm. PJD: -and through job segregation, through access to public schoolsMC: Mhm. PJD: -and so those institutional sort of segregation that exists, I think manifests in people’s behaviors. MC: Mm. PJD: Right? And so I think that there is interpersonal ugh, ways in which, which um, the deep divides that existed in Baltimore affect people’s face to face interactionsMC: Hmm. PJD: -and their face to face behaviors and they’re just not quite aware of that. So I think there is a way in which many people, many-I need to be precise here-many white residentsMC: Mhm. PJD: -of Baltimore have a sort of fear of black residents. MC: Hmm. PJD: Have a sort of um, not in my backyard attitudeMC: Mhm. PJD: -towards African-Americans in the city. And, that sort of transcends class distinction I think. And so um, we can see that um, in different ways and, and um, so in the sense that it’s subdued it’s subdued through sort of, not overt you know, sort of ideological statements- �MC: Yes. PJD: -but through thatMC: Hmm. PJD: -ideological behavior. Does that make sense? Yeah. MC: Yes, and that’s certainly very, very interesting. Um, and you’ve hinted at certainly questions to follow, and I certainly have somePJD: Sorry (​laughs.) MC: -ugh (​laughs) If you don’t, if you don’t mind um, ugh, and the question I’d like to ask nextPJD: Mhm. MC: -would be ugh, may you please share where you were and what you were doing when you first heard about the events that occurred ugh, as a result of Freddie Gray’s death in twenty-fifteen? PJD: (​pause) Where I was when I first heard about it? MC: Mhm. PJD: You know, I don’t-when I first heard about the, the death I don’t remember, I don’t remember exactlyMC: Mhm. PJD: -when I first heard about his death. I remember hearing news that he was in the hospitalMC: Mhm. PJD: -I remember the story kind of leaking, and then I really remem-what stands out to me most was ugh, we were in our history class ugh, you know, which we were talking about civil ri-the long civil rights-the idea of the long civil rightsMC: Yes. �PJD: -movement and the video I think, had just been, I think it was the video had just been released or maybe, maybe the uprising had just begun. I can’t remember the exact timing. But I remember having that evening class and, you know, the video was so-such a statementMC: Mhm. PJD: -about the sort of disrespect of black folks in Baltimore by powers that beMC: Mhm. PJD: -by people who you know, are charged by the state as sort of, supposed to protect the citizenry. MC: Mhm. PJD: And so we’re in this civil rights class, and you know some of the students in the class didn’t have any way to, to sort of understand what had happened except from my point of view to sort of see it through well, he disrespected the police officerMC: Mhm. PJD: -he didn’t obey the police officer, right? And rather than seeing it as the way some of the other people were seeing it which was this clear violation of, of just the humanity of an individual, ugh, I, I like lost-I kind of lost it a little bitMC: Hmm. PJD: -and I got kind of emotional in the classroomMC: Hmm. PJD: -because there’s just a way in which the video doesn’t lie. MC: Hmm. Hmm. PJD: And I think a lot of people, a lot of people felt that way at that moment, that the video doesn’t lieMC: Hmm. PJD: -and if the video doesn’t lie, you know, when are you going to hear us, right? MC: Yeah. �PJD: And um, so that to me stood out. MC: Hmm. PJD: That’s what-that’s one of the moments that stands out, so I can’t remember like I said, the times they all you know, maybe it’s better I didn’t go back and look at the time frameMC: (​chuckles) PJD: -but all that’s, tha-those were a series of events, there’s a series of events and, and the emotions had gotten so high that, that to me is what stood out. MC: Hmm. PJD: That one encounter we had in this classroom where some of the students just didn’t you know, didn’t get it. Didn’t get the frustration, didn’t get the anger, didn’t get the painMC: Mhm. PJD: -didn’t understand you know, why people would be so mad, so frustrated, so sick and tiredMC: Hmm. PJD: -so sick and tired of being sick and tired (​laughs.) MC: Yes, to use that term, yes. Hmm. Hmm. Perhaps then would you have any possible theories that would explain, perhaps even the divisions within your own classroom as toPJD: Yeah. MC: -why there were certain students who were so impassioned about this who, as you said saw the video and reacted ugh, in, in, in, in such a way versus other students who may have felt perhaps indifferent towardsPJD: Yeah. MC: -what was going on? PJD: Yeah. So I mean there was definitely-just as an American society, just in Greater Maryland, Greater Baltimore, you know, you have the sector of people who are very committed, very aware, very, very conscious of the ways in which racism is working in Baltimore. You have �other students that, that you know, white students in particular who um, not all white students, but white students in particular who um, you know aren’t really questioning the ways in which the system that, that, that structured Baltimore County and the ways in which racism is working in Baltimore County and Baltimore City have sort of put them in a privileged position, right? MC: Hmm. PJD: And so any kind of discussion of race, or ra-race, racism, or even outright violence in this case, um, sort of challenges in some ways, their identity, who they areMC: Hmm. PJD: -and, and the sort of truths that they assume about the reality. So there’s that sector and yeah, there’s the indifferent sector. MC: Mhm. PJD: There’s a sector who’s also predominately whiteMC: Mhm. PJD: -not always white-but predominately white um, who thinks that this is not my issueMC: Mhm. PJD: -either because I’m not from Baltimore or because it doesn’t directly affect meMC: Mhm. PJD: -or I’m out here at this, you know, so-called idyllic college campus right? Ugh, but, I think that you always have those sectorsMC: Mhm. PJD: -as an emblematic sort of-it’s an emblematic or a microcosmMC: Hmm. PJD: -of um, society more broadly. MC: And that’s speaking about society on I’m assuming a national scale, perhaps evenPJD: Yeah. �MC: -an international scale. PJD: Yeah. MC: I, IPJD: Yeah, definitely a national scale. Yeah, yeah. MC: Mhm. PJD: I’m not, I’m not skilled enough to talk internationallyMC: (​chuckles) Yeah. PJD: -about that, but I would say yes. To me, what was so significant and, and I think history is going to affirm this about what happened in FergusonMC: Hmm. PJD: -and what happened in Baltimore was that these cases spoke um, a universal truth about a local problem, right? MC: Hmm. PJD: And, and that the reason it resonated from place to place and people reacted to it, and that it you know, brought so much to light on the national level is because yes. The particular issues in BaltimoreMC: Hmm. PJD: -have a certain historical groundingMC: Yes. PJD: -in this region but, they speak to bigger problems in the nationalMC: Mhm. PJD: - the national story, right, and this bigger question of you know, what is American democracy really in the twenty-first century? You know? MC: Hmm. Well, that’s certainly something we’re going to revisit. I wanna’, I wanna’ put my, my- �PJD: Oh. I’m sorry. (​laughs) MC: -thumb on that. That’s quite alright, that’s quite alright! Ugh, so I, I want to ask then what were-and you certainly alluded to this, I just want to get itPJD: Yeah. MC: -in front for clarification. What were your personal feelings then on the events ugh, after the death of Freddie Gray? Personal feelings? PJD: On, on the, on the death of Freddie Gray? MC: Yes. PJD: Okay. So I was ugh, angry. MC: Mhm. PJD: I was just angry, you know. Ugh, I was-I’m not going to say I was hurt. I’m not going to say I was surprised. MC: Hmm. PJD: But, as I said then, and as I’ll say now, ugh, he was treated like a piece of meat to meMC: Hmm. PJD: -and that ugh, that was (​pauses.) It’s one thing when you hear stories. MC: Mhm. PJD: It’s another thing when you experience them. And it’s another thing when you witness them. MC: Mhm. PJD: They all speak to different kinds of truths, right, but watching the video and watching him unable to walk, and watching them hoist him into the vanMC: Mhm. �PJD: -was something that I will never forget, because it was violent, you know? And violence against someone who could not protect themselves. And I think that ugh, yeah. It made me angry. It made me really angry. Not at, not at the police officers necessarilyMC: Mhm. PJD: -but at the broader system that enables this to happenMC: Mhm. PJD: -you know? And ugh, and so I think that was my reaction. MC: Mhm. PJD: And my reaction was you know, how does this for stu-because as a teacher I always go back to my studentsMC: Yeah. PJD: -and, not how are their feelings about this. That matters obviously, but how do they, how do they, you know. How do they, how do they make sense of themselves in this-in a worldMC: Mhm. PJD: -that allows this to happen. MC: Hmm. PJD: You know? MC: Hmm. And then the follow-up question I’d pose to that is what were your personal feelings on the events that followed after his death, so the, the uprising as a whole? Um, so thinking about the images of ugh, say, the CVS (​background noise) or the protest that was going on? What were your personal feelings on that? PJD: My personal feelings were that, my personal feelings ugh, well okay. So I’m a historian. MC: Yes. PJD: I can’t separate my personal feelings fromMC: (​laughs) �PJD: -my historical mind but it, you know. It was not surprising to me. MC: Mhm. PJD: It was not surprising to me. If anybody has any knowledge at all of the sixties and why urban unrest broke out in the nineteen-sixties, um, this was not something that ugh, was surprising, so to speak, because it was sort of history all over againMC: Hmm. PJD: -history repeating itself in some ways. It’s different. MC: Mhm. PJD: There’s obviously differences, there’s obviously differences. Um, but ugh (​pause) you know, ah (​breathes deeply) you know (​laughs) one of the things that stands out to me about that moment was you know, watching on TV when young kids (​laughs) when young kids were throwing rocksMC: Hmm. PJD: -at the police officers, you know, through the whole Mondawmin-when the whole, that whole, that whole thing erupted. MC: Mm. PJD: A lot of news got around the mom who, who you know, smacked around her sonMC: Yeah. PJD: -or the aunt, I can’t rememberMC: Mhm. PJD: -butMC: It was the mother. PJD: -but, but that was a state of warfareMC: Mm. �PJD: -between young kids who felt like they were defending something or challenging somethingMC: Mhm. PJD: -right or wrong-and heavily-armed police officers. MC: Yes. PJD: And the way I felt about it was, wow. Things are different. MC: Hmm. PJD: Something’s changing. Something’s hap-young people are seeing. They, they’re expressing themselves and, and something’s crystallizingMC: Mhm. PJD: -in a way that it hasn’t in the past so that everyday, that everyday behavior, the everyday things that pa-make in inequality and racism in this city. People who were the ones that experienced that violence, young people who experienced that violence who-young people who experienced that violence who were doing somethingMC: Mhm. PJD: -whether it was right or wrong, people will debate thatMC: Mhm. PJD: -and say whatever. Historians don’t really debate right or wrongMC: Mhm. PJD: -but they’ll talk about it as an eventMC: Absolutely. PJD: -what the causes of it wereMC: Mhm. PJD: -right? But that was a moment of something different- �MC: Mhm. PJD: -and I felt as if history was turningMC: Hmm. PJD: That there was something bigger changing and you know, we’ll, we’ll see (​laughs.) MC: That, that’s certainly fair. Um, then towards the, the, the, the-since I’m trying to shift gears-would you say that you would-and you can certainly, you’re certainly free to use different terms herePJD: Yeah. MC: -condone, con-or condemn what happened or would you perhaps-I, it, it’s obvious you weren’t entirely indifferent to what happenedPJD: Right, yeah, yeah, yeah. Right. So would I condone or condemn it? MC: Mhm. PJD: I, I mean the interesting thing about this right, is that you know, let me step back for a minuteMC: Mhm. PJD: -is that this all has to-this, this kind of question of condemning or condoning um, all circulates around who has the right to actMC: Hmm. PJD: -outwardly violent, right? MC: Hmm. PJD: And so, what’s fascinating from a kind of sorry, detached point of view from ten-thousand feet is that you know, the, the question of violence around Freddie Gray, right, we almost never ask ourselves until a moment like thatMC: Mhm. PJD: -is this kind of, is this violence, is this police brutality that people have been commenting on, that the city has been paying- �MC: Hmm. PJD: -out to victims of police violence, is that just? Can we condone that, right? We, we kind of agree that we can’t. We kind of agree that we don’t but, when it has to do with people who feel as though they’re resisting somethingMC: Hmm. PJD: -and organizing to resist something, that question gets let a lot easy, right? Is this okay? Can I condone that, what these young people were doing, right? And so um, do I condone violence? I do not condone violence. MC: Mhm. PJD: Ugh, do I condone resistance? Ugh, sometimes yesMC: Hmm. PJD: -as ugh, as an AmericanMC: (​Laughs.) PJD: -patriot (​laughs), right? Resistance is necessary so it’s, so, you know, this is the complexitiesMC: Hmm. PJD: -of the moment, right. And I wish I could so easily say this side is right and this side is wrong, right, you know. But the way I look at these relationships is that there are sort of systems and power relations that are producing this environment and you know, it’s a sort of militarization versus impoverished people dynamicMC: Hmm. PJD: -that is yes, sweeping the globe. Yes. MC: Hmm. PJD: I remember-it is international that way, you know? MC: Hmm. Well, that’s certainly I think at least interesting that there’s distinctions that are, that are clearly being made between outward violence-blatant violence- �PJD: Mhm. MC: -and then defending yourself against violencePJD: Right. MC: -so to speak. PJD: Yeah. MC: I, I think that, that’s very important that the distinction’s been made. Um, so ugh, trying to move forward stillPJD: (​Laughs.) MC: -were you personally involved with any activities following Freddie Gray’s death. You’ve certainly talked about your, your teaching here at GoucherPJD: Mhm. MC: -then if so could you explain your involvement. PJD: I was not, I was not directly involvedMC: Mhm. PJD: -in any of the organizing. I did-was not directly involved in any of the protestingMC: Mhm. PJD: -um (​pauses) and you know, ugh, I was just thinking through it, you knowMC: Mhm. PJD: -I, I sort of, I admittedly um, I can be a sort of sidelined personMC: (​Chuckles.) PJD: -you know. There are some things now that I’m growing older. When I was younger it would have been a different story, right? But um, ugh, so I was not directly involved in any of it. My, my involvement, if any of the spirit of what was happening at the moment of, of, of what was happening was definitely talking to students- �MC: Mhm. PJD: -about what was going on, and trying to get them to think about things much more deeply than just um, ugh, what they assumed you know, what they knew about and provide a historical perspective and getting students to understand that this is part of a long historyMC: Mhm. PJD: -in this country and Baltimore as a microcosm of something much biggerMC: Hmm. PJD: -and something much more complex. Ugh, and so a lot of time and energy was built you know, spent in that realmMC: Hmm. PJD: -of, of, of the spirit that was unleashed at that moment. Does that make sense? MC: Yes. PJD: Yeah. MC: Now I, I’d suspect that, that for a class that was studying civil rightsPJD: Yeah. MC: -and to have that happen was a unfortunately timely event thenPJD: Not unfortunate. MC: -or perhaps not unfortunate. PJD: Because, well so you know, what, what more reasonMC: Mhm. PJD: -for a student in the class to realize they need to understand historyMC: Yes. PJD: -then to understand what was happening- �MC: Mhm. PJD: -right outside, right? MC: Mhm. PJD: And to be able to situate um, you know, this, this, you know, treatment of Freddie Gray and what happened on-by the police um, within a broader history of the civil rights struggles so how far-one of the questions about the length of the long civil rights movement is you know, how-what were the gainsMC: Mhm. PJD: -you know. One of the questions we get to ask, what were the gains? What weren’t the gains? How have race and racism changed umMC: Yes. PJD: in the United States? So ugh, it’s hard for me as a historian ever to say-things are unfortunate when people get hurt, yes. MC: Mhm. PJD: You know obviously that’s not what I mean, you know. But from a learning perspectiveMC: Mhm. PJD: -I think that um, what happened really raised consciousness to a new levelMC: Mhm. PJD: -in the country and especially among our students, and among people in BaltimoreMC: Hmm. PJD: -in a new way. And so um, that is an unfortunate. MC: Hmm. PJD:That’s a strangely good thing in my viewMC: Hmm. �PJD: -if that makes any sense. MC: Yeah, in, in the sense that it’s a, a, a living, breathing history lesson outside the classroom. PJD: Yeah, right, which I mean is, you know, you know that’sMC: Mhm. PJD: (​laughs) my point isn’t just toMC: Yeah. PJD: Yeah. It’s you knowMC: Mhm. PJD: -not heyMC: Mhm. PJD: -like, here’s oddityMC: Yeah. PJD: -you know, but that you are part of this moment, that you are wrapped up and that you are involved, and you are-you haveMC: Mhm. PJD: -the knowledge-you understand about the world, shapes the world around youMC: Mhm. PJD: -and in order to interpret it and make sense of it you have to know your history. MC: Mhm. PJD: ‘Cause otherwise, you’ll be that student in the classroom who’s like, what does this mean? I don’t care orMC: That indifferent student. �PJD: -that indifference, right. MC: Hmm. So (​pauses) so, with media coverage there’s a lot to be said about ugh, the role that media playedPJD: Mhm. MC: -in covering the events so ugh, the, the next question would be that even though the media’s used a variety of terms-even with terminologyPJD: Mm. MC: -to describe what happened last year PJD: Mhm. MC: -what terms would you use, if any, to describe the events in Baltimore? Um, so for example, such terms as demonstrations, uprising, riotsPJD: Mhm. MC: -just some examples, etcetera. Which terms do you thinkPJD: Mhm. MC: -would best describe? PJD: Yeah, you know, so like, you know, a history lesson, right? Ugh, there was a major ugh, you know, uprising in Detroit back in the sixties and you go to Detroit and locals will not call it a riotMC: Mhm. PJD: -right? They would call it an uprising and that was when I was younger. Something I learned was that you know, the, the language we use to label events ugh, can often be the language of outsidersMC: Mhm. PJD: -and not appreciate the language of insiders and so um, my perspective on this event is that I, I ugh, I see it as an uprising. MC: Mhm. �PJD: I see it as an, an effort by a collective group of people to make a statement. MC: Mhm. PJD: It’s not a judgement on whether or not that was the right actionMC: Hmm. PJD: -but I believe that, that’s what was happening, and people were trying to be heard, and people were trying to make a statement, and trying to say we’ve had enough. Do something. MC: Mhm. PJD: The rest of the world needs to see us. Do somethingMC: Mhm. PJD: -right. And so, ugh, yeah. That’s the language I use. That’s the language I, I use and I use that very consciously to be respectfulMC: Mhm. PJD: -and understand that, knowing full-well that people got hurt, knowing full-well that people lost propertyMC: Mhm. PJD: -but um, yeah. Also being appreciative of the fact that people felt like they had been-or have been-sort of disregardedMC: Mhm. PJD: -for generations and that you know, something, something needed to changeMC: Hmm. PJD: -and they needed to be heard. MC: Hmm. PJD: Mhm. �MC: And I think that’s really important and I wanna ugh, I wanna focus on that really quick. You think um, along with the distinctions between violence, and even ugh, neighborhoods within BaltimorePJD: Mhm. MC: -terminologies that’s being used by outsiders versus peoplePJD: Mhm. MC: -localsPJD: Mhm. MC: -as it werePJD: Mhm. MC: -is important in understanding ugh, this historical event. PJD: Oh yeah. Absolutely. I mean, and you know, the truth is I bet you’re going to uncover this as you do more research is that there’s probably multiple voicesMC: Mhm. PJD: -multiple ways for describing, from inside the communityMC: Mhm. PJD: -and from outside of the community-the community, however we define thatMC: Mhm. PJD: -right? But yeah, absolutely. I mean I think, I think you know, obviously one of the, the major moments I think that was viewed from the outsideMC: Mhm. PJD: -and I say this as a Baltimore, like a Baltimore kind of perspective, because I don’t, I don’t really watch a lot of television, um, and you know, I kind of fiddle with social mediaMC: Mhm. �PJD: -so a lot of the stuff I view is reading, you know. I read every-I read stuff but I remember you know, kind of watching the news a little moreMC: Mhm. PJD: -at this point and thinking that there was this clear way in which social media was using language, or the major media outlets were using language in sort of describing events and talking events in Baltimore that seemed not to registering with the ways in which people whoMC: Hmm. PJD: -lived in Baltimore were experiencing and thinking through it, and the sort of you know, symbolic event that took place was when Rawlings-Blake you know, uses the term thugsMC: Mhm. PJD: -right? MC: Mhm. PJD: And I think ugh, I think it’s absolutely imperative to understand that with language comes different perspectives, and competing narratives, and competing ways for explaining an event and so if we have this sort of commitment to undercovering the truth, whatever that may beMC: Mhm. PJD: -we need to understand that those different voices are reflecting different perspectives, and reflecting in some cases, different truthsMC: Hmm. PJD: -right? MC: Mhm. PJD: And so um, this idea of you know, who’s using what language to describe these events is absolutely central to understanding what these events truly were. Does that make sense? MC: Yeah it does. Hmm. UmPJD: Did you want me to be more precise? I meanMC: You can- �PJD: Yeah. MC: -you can certainlyPJD: -no. I just mean like, that this question of a riot versus uprisingMC: Mhm. PJD: -ugh, yeah. It captures so much of this problemMC: Hmm. PJD: -which is that you know, are we going to listen to people who felt unheard or not? MC: Mhm. PJD: (​Laughs) You know? I mean if you want to reduce it, you knowMC: Mhm. PJD: -to just being heard, so to speakMC: Mhm. PJD: -in Am-in a, in democratic-in a so-called democratic society. I think that um, that little conversation, how we label itMC: Mhm. PJD: -how we think of it (​noise on table) is absolutely ugh, a window into the broader problemsMC: Mhm. PJD: -of how Americans at large talk, and engage, and think about what ugh, white supremacy and racismMC: Mhm. PJD: -do in this country and the work that those things do in this country. Does that make sense? MC: Mhm. �PJD: Yeah. MC: Even focusing on those two terms-riot and uprisingPJD: Yeah. MC: -there are certainly different connotations to them that can bePJD: Yes. MC: -interpretedPJD: Yeah. MC: -not just by local Baltimore, but byPJD: Oh yeah. MC: -the nation as a whole. PJD: Right. MC: With the term riot you tend to think a lot more violentPJD: Yeah. MC: -and that may not necessarily been the exact casePJD: Yeah. MC: -umPJD: Well riots, to me often-riots to me invokes this idea of senseless violence committed oftentimes against property. MC: Mhm. PJD: Right? Um, uprising, often has a meaning that it um, has to do with politicsMC: Mhm. PJD: -or a political- �MC: System. PJD: -problem, or system. MC: Mhm. PJD: So riot is oftentimes used to sort of ugh, cast people in a way that says they have no reason for doing what they’re doing. MC: Mhm. PJD: They are not aware of what they are doing. They’re not conscious of what they’re doing. Um, it’s spasmodic, it’s not you know, part of a bigger, broader conversation, so to speak, or bigger, broader systemMC: Mhm. PJD: -whereas uprising you know, has to deal with this question of power and unequal powerMC: Mhm. PJD: -I think. MC: Mhm. PJD: I think it does. MC: Well, I certainly thank you for that ugh, clarificationPJD: Yeah. MC: -on those points. And you’ve alluded to this question that I’m going to ask um, but again for clarificationPJD: Mhm. MC: -what was your reaction to the media? You said that you had started watching news a tad bit morePJD: Mhm. �MC: -um, what was your reaction to the media coverage on those events and then do you feel as though television news and then print mediaPJD: Mhm. MC: -ugh, ugh, reported accuratelyPJD: (​Breathes deeply.) MC: -and or fairly on the event? PJD: You know, it’s hard to say because you know ugh, it’s hard to say that, to really give a true answer toMC: Hmm. PJD: -like an answer I feel ugh, one-hundred percent comfortable about because I haven’t seen all the different ways in which theMC: Mhm. PJD: -different news outlets dealt with it and I though that some reporters were doing a better jobMC: Mhm. PJD: -ugh, and some, some ways in which ugh, the events were being written about did a better job and seemed to be-it seemed to be people who really had a commitment and love for the city, quite honestlyMC: Mhm. PJD: -who wanted, who wanted to, to, to um, bring the issues of inequality and racism to light, because they knew that it existed. And so I think that some reporters wanted to tell that story and, and saw this as a moment where hey, I really need to do my job, you know? Ugh, I’m sure that other news outlets didMC: Mhm. PJD: -and that they sold and sold you know, sold advertising based onMC: Hmm. �PJD: -you know, stoking flames of general animosityMC: Mhm. PJD: -towards blacks in the United States right? So um, you know, I can’t say. I, you know. I, I think that it definitely played a role though and ugh truth is social media redefines a narrative, right? You can have a student-students can, students can-young people (students again) but young people-people across the board using social media really-ugh, can share an article where the content of the article ugh, says one thingMC: Yeah. PJD: -but their commentary on the article is the actual piece that people see. MC: Hmm. PJD: Yeah. And so um, it, it you know, can be redefined so even if the media outlets cast it in a certain way, there is this other currentMC: Mhm. PJD: -of communication that could challenge that or redefine that. So in terms of stoking things, in terms of sort of, playing a role, played a role about awareness for sure. MC: Mhm. PJD: Um, but when the media was racist I don’t think it was surprise to anybodyMC: Mm. PJD: -you know what I mean? I think, I think you know, um, so I don’t know, like, does that get to your question? MC: It not only gets to that question but it-your answer also rolls into the question I was going to pose next with you addressing, even social media at, at large. PJD: Yeah. MC: The next question I wanted to ask pose was do you think the media influencedPJD: (​Laughs.) �MC: -on the way events in Baltimore were received ugh, by the city and then by the nation at large? PJD: (​Breathes deeply.) I’ve sure-so I again you know (​chuckles)MC: Mhm. PJD: -I’m getting oldMC: (​Chuckles.) PJD: -so like turning stuff off is kind of like (​laughs) unfortunately ‘cause I’m a-I’m just so much more of a reader but yes. I mean I, I definitely think that it shaped how people interpreted eventsMC: Mhm. PJD: -to me what crystallizes all of this is the whole story about Mondawmin (​noise on table) andMC: Hmm. PJD: -about what actually happened ugh, you know, around the mall which was that this rumor-we don’t know who started itMC: Mhm. PJD: -about the so-called purge, right? Um, it became an issue and the police reacted by shutting down the bus routes. MC: Mhm. PJD: Students were all on those buses, got off the buses had no way to get home, right (​noise on table) and that aggravated already simmering tensionsMC: Mhm. Yes. PJD: -and so-but the narrative outside from-I remember this-no one knew that story. No one knewMC: Hmm. PJD: -that this was not some just like, purge- �MC: Hmm. PJD: -that was actually happening. People thought that this was like some movie that was happening in Baltimore and um, I think that outside of the city, and even in Greater Baltimore County and probably among people in the city ugh, people read selectively. MC: Hmm. PJD: People hear what they want to hear, and so it’s not just about the media. It’s about the ways in which we participate in constructing truth for ourselves aboutMC: Mhm. PJD: -about what’s going on, so I think that ugh, the media has a role in there but if you are an educated citizen, you should know that you should always question everything. MC: Hmm. PJD: See it from multiple perspectivesMC: Mhm. PJD: -you know. So maybe there’s deeper lessons (​chuckles) about education in thereMC: Mhm. PJD: -and the media in there, embedded in there but ugh, yeah. I remember that event specifically and the Mondawmin case isn’t just being frustrated about the ways in which that was not actually being discussedMC: Mhm. PJD: -broad-more broadly, you know. And ugh, that that gave this sort of fuel to the fire, this idea that this like you know, careless, senseless, um, undirected riot, you knowMC: Mhm. PJD: -without actually understanding the contextual natureMC: Mhm. PJD: -of it. Um, so yeah. �MC: Hmm. PJD: Does that make sense? MC: It, it does make sense and I’m thinking back to earlier within the interview wherePJD: Yeah. MC: -you were discussing-even within your own classPJD: Mhm. MC: -students who were actively participating in discussion versus students who felt very indifferent towards what was happening. PJD: Mhm. MC: PerhapsPJD: Mhm. MC: -I don’t want to use the term parallels but there might be connections perhaps um, that you might want to talk about-perhaps not um-even with the way that something that simple as the students getting off the buses ugh, how that was received, based on the, the use of social media or what have you. PJD: Yeah. I don’t know, you know. I don’t really know because I think that it’s one thing back in the day, so to speakMC: Mhm. PJD: -when you had only a few news outlets and everybody was kind of looking roughly at the same newsMC: Mhm. PJD: -you know, and now where so much of it is circulated um, you know, circulated in different ways and by different circuits. And so I don’t know how ugh, in that case, students in the classroom were getting the news. MC: Mm. �PJD: My guess is, is that the vast majority of students across the boardMC: Mhm. PJD: (​Laughs) if they were getting any news, were getting news that was reposted from their friendsMC: Hmm. PJD: -and probably just gave it a, a commentary and most students probably weren’t reading the content of any of the news, right? And if there was a video they were probably watching it, rightMC: Mhm. PJD: -and um, making interpretations from the video and um, there were probably students who quite frankly weren’t reading anythingMC: Mhm. PJD: -and just hearing and tuning out and you know, indifference is a choice, you know and I think, I think indifference is, is a choice and so ugh (​noise on table) I think that yeah. MC: Hmm. PJD: Students probably weren’t reading (​noise on table) so the role that it played um, did you ask about media generally, or social media? I can’t remember. MC: Well we can focus on media generallyPJD: Yeah. MC: -and then on social mediaPJD: Yeah. MC: -with a focus if you wanted toPJD: I meanMC: -address it that way. PJD: -I think there is a difference. �MC: Mhm. PJD: I mean, obviously, you know. But I think there is a difference and I think that social media played a really significant role in sort of, building the momentumMC: Mhm. PJD: -with sort of this, this, this larger spirit that began to be unlocked um, and you know attracting college students into this kind of idea of protesting andMC: Mhm. PJD: -generating ugh, sort of knowledge and counternarratives about what was happening um, and then you know, the sort of mainstream media, right. But I mean the big network media, I think you know, with their claims of objectivity and their claims for being balanced and neutral um, you know, was probably um, I’m sure some of the reporters were doing the best job they could to sort of give a full, rich storyMC: Mhm. PJD: -and in other ways they weren’t so I think there are definite-there’s definitely different registers in which um, the news was sort of working to shape the ways ugh, that people understood the event, for sure. And you know being a historian to, um, I don’t have enough, I don’t have enough archival information to, to speak to thatMC: Hmm. PJD: -ugh, clearly you know, but you know, with much precision. MC: (​Chuckles.) PJD: (​Laughs.) MC: Well, well then, certainly moving forward thenPJD: Yeah. MC: -with the interview, um, and we touched on this within the earlier part of the discussion, overall, how do you view events-overall again-how do you view events ugh, surrounding Freddie Gray’s death? Do you think the city’s recovered ugh, from those events, or do you think there’s still work to be done? �PJD: Um, there’s definitely still work to be done. MC: Mhm. PJD: Um, there’s definitely still work to be done. I want to say something though about that question. It’s interesting, and it came up, like it just popped in my mindMC: Mhm. PJD: -as, as like you know, is this-this idea that the city is like this organic, you know, en-you know, like unifiedMC: Mhm. PJD: -place, right? I mean there’s a way in which that language um-and it’s not a comment on youMC: Mhm. Absolutely. PJD: -but just like when you think about language-going back to languageMC: Absolutely. Mhm. PJD: -and the way in which this is all constructed is that, is that you know, it’s, it’s not about the cityMC: Mhm. PJD: -right? It’s about, it’s about the ways in which inequality is working in the cityMC: Hmm. PJD: -right? MC: Hmm. PJD: And so the ways in which people are experiencing problems and so, so there’s a way in which I think the city meaning-in that case right, the people who run the cityMC: Mhm. PJD: -right, are definitely trying to generate a sort of rebirth narrative already um, I think trying to argue that you know-this is a place where investment can happen. I think um, um, that that’s a �story that’s beginning to be told. Um, I think that what I’m most fearful of is that despite all of thisMC: Mhm. PJD: -ugh, it’s very possible that it will become a story that gets toldMC: Mhm. PJD: -and not really affect inequality in the city. And so um, ugh, yes. Things, things need to change. MC: Mhm. PJD: And ugh, I think there’s a moment quickly eclipsing, I would sayMC: Mhm. PJD: -ugh, that has been opened, and we’ll see what happens. Um, but ugh, ugh, yeah. No doubt. I mean, so much more needs to happen. Ugh, we will look back in American history at this moment-and particularly at Baltimore-and um, try to make sense of it. And I will predict unfortunately, that um, we’re going to be asking ourselves many of the same questions. MC: Mm. PJD: How did we get here? You know? MC: Hmm. PJD: So we’ll see. MC: We shallPJD: (​Chuckles.) MC: -and that’s ugh, ugh, hmm. Hmm. And so then continuing on this trend about thinking about the futurePJD: Mhm. MC: -ugh, in your opinion how do you view (​clears throat) race relationsPJD: Mhm. �MC: -um, after the events following Gray’s death here in Baltimore? PJD: Mhm. MC: Are there any ways you think that could help improve those relationships, perhaps not just within the city at largePJD: Mhm. MC: -as you noted but perhaps within the specific neighborhoodsPJD: Mhm. MC: at, at allPJD: Mhm. MC: -within the city? PJD: Yeah, I mean well (​jingling noise)MC: Or individuals for that matter? PJD: Yeah. Well, okay. So I mean you know, the ways which we think of race and racism working, they work in various levelsMC: Mhm. PJD: -and various registers, right, so they can work on an interpersonal level. They can work on a sort of community level. They can work on the state level and you know, they can work on a sort of national level and so you know, um, the events that happened-uprising and the death of Freddie Gray and the various reactions to that-operated on all these different levels. And I think that one thing that is clear to me is that no doubt that um, ugh, among particularly um, conservative-right folks in this area that ugh, they saw a story that just confirmed to themMC: Hmm. PJD: -right, ugh, what’s wrong in America, right. You know, black ne’er-do-wells, so to speak, right. You know. Ugh, African-Americans prone to violence, right. Confirming, you knowMC: Mhm. �PJD: -these events confirm for those people that story, I think and I think that they view so-called race relations worse, right? I think other people are much more aware of um, the underlying issues that informed ugh, the uprising and the death of Freddie Gray and the general police bru-police brutality cases and understanding that this is much more about inequality and racism and the ways white supremacy has historically worked in this region. Um, and so I think there are people who ugh, white people who are trying to be ugh, more conscious and proactive. I think that there is clearly in different sectors of the black community in Baltimore ugh, a greater sense of collective struggle that’s emerging-has always been thereMC: Mhm. PJD: -um, but it’s emerging. It’s beginning to and it has a lot of potential to make change. Um, local politics in the United States are so-local politics, local power, local resources-are so contingent on bigger, broader relationshipsMC: Hmm. PJD: -so this issue of race relations you know, ugh, what, what we’re really talking about is racism, you know, and so ugh, how do we deal with the relationship in which racism and inequality in this country is going to require um, is going to require relationships that, that ugh, move across and cut across those different registers, right. You know. The interpersonal, the localMC: Mhm. PJD: -the city-wide, the statewide, the national. So are they better off? Are race relations better off? That is going to depend on who you ask. MC: Mm. PJD: (​Laughs.) And again, not to be so inspecific and allMC: Mm. PJD: -and so general about it, but ugh, I, I think the bigger question is not so much are they better off or worse off, right, because it sort of situates the conversation in a certain wayMC: Mhm. PJD: -I think the bigger, broader question is Baltimore, is the city, is the county, is the state, is the nation going to deal with inequality? MC: Mm. �PJD: Are we going to deal with inequality, and what that means and how that’s been made manifest, particularly in ugh, poor, working black neighborhoods in cities. MC: Mhm. PJD: But also in many other ways. Baltimore is a symbol for ugh, the ills of the nation, and it could be a symbol for what’s possible in the nation. MC: Mhm. PJD: Whether we choose to do that and see it that way, yeah. That’s another story. MC: Hmm. PJD: So. MC: Baltimore is a microcosmPJD: Yeah. MC: -as you’ve saidPJD: Yeah, I meanMC: -several times. PJD: Yeah. I mean, the middleground. MC: Mhm. PJD: The middleground. MC: Mhm. PJD: Maryland is a middleground. It is still the middleground. MC: It is a border state. PJD: Yeah, yeah. MC: Hmm. �PJD: Absolutely. MC: Perhaps, perhaps then that might segway into my, one of my final questions I have. PJD: Mhm. MC: Ugh, the idea of Baltimore being essentially ugh, a symbol for what is possible within our nation, and sort of the ills of the nation. PJD: Hmm. MC: Do, do you think events in Baltimore-and I think this has probably been stated within the earlier confines of thePJD: Yeah. MC: -interviewPJD: Yeah. MC: -do you think that events in Baltimore are connected to any larger, national trends? PJD: Oh yeah. I mean absolutely. MC: MHm. PJD: Ugh, ugh, we cannot understand what happened in Baltimore just by looking at the neighborhood relations in BaltimoreMC: Mhm. PJD: -and the ways in which racism and inequality are working here in Baltimore. Um, it, it resonated with, with other events um, with the larger Black Live Matters momentMC: Mhm. PJD: -ugh, it’s not to say it was caused by thatMC: Mhm. Yes. PJD: -but it was part of this broader sort of say, collective uprising, so to speak, this broader struggle, this broader ugh, effort to raise consciousness about um, particularly racism and, and ugh, questions around racism and citizenship and treatment etcetera by the police um, and, and �all the many ways in which it registers so ugh, it is part of a broader-yes. It is, no doubt that we are in a broader moment in history ugh, similar to-but also different from-the late nineteen-sixtiesMC: Yes. PJD: -and you know um, I think ugh, it is not just an isolated moment. MC: Mhm. PJD: It’s also really important that there’s definitely local, local, local power dynamics, I think. MC: Mhm. PJD: Right? MC: Mhm. PJD: And so it can’t just be fixed from ten-thousand feet, you know, although that’s important. MC: Hmm. PJD: And it’s got to be at the grassroots level, the things that are going to take place and change to, to-in many ways you know, so ugh, um, part of the broader, deep, broader issue in American society, yeah, but also in a local too. MC: Perhaps then-if I may ask a quick (​yawns) pardon me, follow-up question to that-with all of the recent events, all of the recent deaths of predominantly black, African-American malesPJD: Mhm. MC: -um, that, that are especially being capturedPJD: Hmm. Hmm. MC: -by civilians, by, by people of police um, brutalityPJD: Mhm. MC: -some would describe it-do you feel as though those are connected to the narrative here in Baltimore, or do you view them and possibly as separate? PJD: Oh no. They’re deeply connected- �MC: Mhm. PJD: -you know, and I think that the fact that we see this reproduction of um, ugh, police violence against um, against African-Americans and people of colorMC: Mhm. PJD: -broadly um, be reproduced in different places sort of speaks to the fact that there’s something deeper,MC: Mm. PJD: -that it’s not just a Baltimore issueMC: Mhm. PJD: -right, and, and that you know, there has to be some sort of understanding of this bigger, broader culture of political, economic system that is, that is generating this, because why else do we find it manifested in all these different placesMC: Mhm. Mhm. PJD: -that have all these very different histories? The west you know, the west all the way to Baltimore, right? And so ugh, I think that ugh, I, I yeah. I think what the media does-social mediaMC: Mhm. PJD: -not only, people talk about the fact that it can be capturedMC: Yes. PJD: -and that it can be seen, it can become a sort of archive, a sort of momentMC: Yes. PJD: -for a confirmation for the fact hey, we were telling you this all the time and look (​noise on table) here is our evidence, right. MC: Mhm. �PJD: But the whole question of like, how, how people have to produce truth to be heard is, is a crazy oneMC: Mhm. PJD: -and but um, the other thing that it does is that (​noise on table) it enables people (​noise on table) who feel oppressed, (​noise on table) who are oppressed, exploited in all these different ways, in all these different places, to realize that they are not alone. MC: Mhm. PJD: Right? And that there is (​noise on the table) they are a part of something bigger and they are part of the bigger network and so um, they op-those, those images operate on that level, right. Um, they, they help people sense themselves as part of a broader collectivity of people and I, I think that’s really important to think about those images as well so, so they, so they-the ways in which they ugh, these events have sort of stoked people’s consciousness and sort of-and, and the ways in which that connected them speaks again to this issueMC: Mhm. PJD: -between you know, the local and the universal or the local and the national and um, I hope that gets to an answer to your questionMC: Mhm. PJD: -in some wayMC: Yes. PJD: -does that make sense? MC: Absolutely. Yes it does. PJD: Yeah. And so we can’t just reduce it to just us, to just this little thing, just these little neighborhood relations. We can’t reduce it just tot a national problem and yeah. The way forward is to definitely understandMC: Mhm. PJD: -where all these different registers re-re-relateMC: Yes. �PJD: -you know. MC: Thank you ugh, for that clarification. Um, we’ve, we’ve reached the end of the interview actuallyPJD: Ugh-huh. MC: -I’ve one more question to pose this isPJD: Yeah. MC: -mostly logistical for ugh, my organization. PJD: Okay. MC: Do you think that or do you know of any other people um, who might be willing or would be willing to share their thoughts for this oral history project? PJD: Yeah. I mean, do you want names on, on video? Is that what you’re talking about? MC: Well, well, wePJD: (​Laughs.) MC: -we can probably figure that out ugh, ugh, ughPJD: (​Laughs.) MC: -once the video stops rolling (​laughs.) PJD:‘Cause I would hate to name a name and have them find out, you know. Yeah, no. I think that people-I think that there’s a lot of people who want to talk about itMC: Mhm. PJD: -and ugh, one thing’s for sure. The local story has to be toldMC: Mhm. PJD: -you know, because that is going to disappear, and I’m so happy that this is happening because you know, my voice is not central to you know, I feel I’m on the fringes I experience this in a certain way- �MC: Mhm. PJD: -and like ugh, but there’s people um, who experienced um, ugh, the frustration, anger, the day to day violence (​noise on table) that sort of gave rise to this who still want to be heardMC: Mhm. PJD: -and I think that recording this give-preserving their voice-and the voice of so many people-preserving their voice, preserving the voice, particularly of the people in Baltimore who, who have ugh, been struggling, continuing to struggle and who (​noise on table) felt that pain in that moment who, who want to be heard ugh, the archives serves as a way to not let people forget, you know. MC: Hmm. PJD: And so ugh, there’s many more voices to be heard (​noise on table) and to be recorded, and to be preserved, you know (​noise on table.) MC: Mm. Well um, that is the end of the interview. Ugh, once again I am um, I am Micah Connor ugh, interviewing Professor James Dator here at, at Goucher College on October twenty-sixth, twenty-sixteen and I certainly thank him for taking time out of his schedule to talk ugh, on, on behalf perhaps of the History DepartmentPJD: No, no, not on behalfMC: Or perhaps not! I should clarifyPJD: I speak on my own behalf (​laughs.) MC: -I should clarify that he speaks on his own behalf ugh, but certainlyPJD: Not on behalf of the college (​laughs)MC: -but certainly ugh, ugh, speaking on his own behalfPJD: Yeah. MC: -and, and I certainly do thank you for, for taking time out of your schedule. Thank you. PJD: Oh, thank you Micah. When are they, when are you getting interviewed? MC: Oh, well- �PJD: (​Laughs.) MC: -that’ll be something that’ll have to be discussed ugh, ughPJD: -at a later date? MC: -in the future. At a later date. PJD: Alright. Yeah, I know a name! I know a name! Micah Connor. MC: (​Chuckles.) PJD: (​Chuckles.) � https://www.baltimoreuprising2015.org/files/original/3d89fa400a44410b0aadb0aa3095643a.pdf 05fcb6956845bfc6bd3aec4dcf5c996f PDF Text Text �� Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Preserve the Baltimore Uprising Archive Intern Oral Histories Collection Description An account of the resource Oral histories conducted by the interns of the Preserve the Baltimore Uprising Archive Project. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Preserve the Baltimore Uprising Archive Project interns at the Maryland Historical Society Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available MdHS Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Micah Connor, Sha'Von Terrell, Sterling Warren, Sydney Cook Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource MP3, PDF, JPG Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Micah Connor Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Professor James Dator Location The location of the interview Goucher College Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Yes Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 57:37 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Professor James Dator Interview Subject The topic of the resource Demonstration / event Description An account of the resource Professor James Dator is interviewed by Micah Connor. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Micah Connor for the Preserve the Baltimore Uprising Archive Project Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available MdHS Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 10/26/2016 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Micah Connor Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource MP3, jpg, and PDF Baltimore Baltimore Police Freddie Gray Maryland Historical Society media Mondawmin mall police police brutality protests Uprising https://www.baltimoreuprising2015.org/files/original/a50cc1ff08193fb395531fd47f463345.mp3 e6d64792c19df8fe221151f0ace79052 https://www.baltimoreuprising2015.org/files/original/c1e19f4ffb63792bf7df79e5d6082384.JPG 596d01228b9e7e82b95b17589ee45689 https://www.baltimoreuprising2015.org/files/original/7fd1471609a99e92f2bd5017c0b35fb3.pdf e8142c8598a528067244e899df9f9ce3 PDF Text Text ��������������������������������� https://www.baltimoreuprising2015.org/files/original/ca63128e0f4be58fad0c7f2ea299aa4e.pdf 6d6d6ca0ce476c3e188f0d435765a2b1 PDF Text Text �� Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Preserve the Baltimore Uprising Archive Intern Oral Histories Collection Description An account of the resource Oral histories conducted by the interns of the Preserve the Baltimore Uprising Archive Project. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Preserve the Baltimore Uprising Archive Project interns at the Maryland Historical Society Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available MdHS Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Micah Connor, Sha'Von Terrell, Sterling Warren, Sydney Cook Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource MP3, PDF, JPG Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Micah Connor Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Imam Hassan A. Amin Location The location of the interview Maryland Historical Society Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Yes Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 48:04 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Imam Hassan A. Amin Interview Subject The topic of the resource Demonstration / event Description An account of the resource Imam Hassan A. Amin is interviewed by Micah Connor. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Micah Connor for the Preserve the Baltimore Uprising Archive Project Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available MdHS Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 10/4/2016 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Micah Connor Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource MP3, jpg, and PDF Baltimore Baltimore Police Freddie Gray Maryland Historical Society media Mondawmin mall police protests https://www.baltimoreuprising2015.org/files/original/d050f8c513bb616e3e97e0b05b330e3e.mp3 cb879d1f49bbcdf7e2233a2110b6aaf4 https://www.baltimoreuprising2015.org/files/original/1d0d569c43a905c033181333813b711f.JPG 3a47418f93ac5252ec994564f728589f https://www.baltimoreuprising2015.org/files/original/22917f87e57a98c9ad8c0005f838af6e.pdf e90c2a441dd99a784acd9859a7887fec PDF Text Text Preserve the Baltimore Uprising 2015 Online Archive Transcript for Interview with Reverend Phillip R. Turner Micah Connor: Alright. Ugh, good morning. I am Micah Connor interviewing the Reverend Phillip Turner here at the Maryland Historical Society on October 1, 2016. We are here for Preserve the Baltimore Uprising (clears throat) online archive project. So, we’ll begin the interview by asking the good Reverend here, ugh, first a few generic background questions if he doesn’t mindReverend Phillip Turner: No. MC: -the first question I would like to ask Mister, or Reverend Turner, if I may address you as such is, may you please share your full name and age? RPT: I’m Reverend Phillip Ronald Turner, and I am sixty-one years old. MC: Fantastic Reverend. May I please then ask where are you from originally, and where do you currently reside? RPT: I was born in Baltimore, Maryland, ugh, and I reside at 438 East Lanvale Street. MC: Ugh, as your title may suggest then Reverend, you are a man of faith and could you then briefly tell me about your place of worship ugh, if you don’t mind, and any community outreach activities ugh, that it may participate in? RPT: Yes. Ugh, first of all, I am a priest, and ugh, I work with people ugh, personally with problems if they are willing to talk to me and I discuss with them their presence here in time and the afterlife which is in eternity, and I am very careful to make-to ask, am I offending people by talking to them about the afterlife. If I am, then I’ll stop. If I’m not, then I’ll continue. Our church is involved in many ugh, outreach activities. Zion Baptist Church ugh, is involved with ugh, the Celebration Center that they held, celebration activities that they hold at the Du Burns Center every year. Um, they give away school supplies and, they have a day care, and they help the community in any way that they can. Ugh, sometimes, ugh, my brother-in-law, when he was living, Reverend Steven L. Thomas, Sr., would go to court with the young men in the community-and women-if they had gotten themselves in trouble with the law to give character references to the judge and offer any extensions to their parole if the judge would allow it. MC: Fantastic Reverend. It certainly sounds like you and your church are very much involved with the community. It’s very fantastic. Um, perhaps as a quick follow-up might I ask how long you’ve been preaching at Family Bible? RPT: Ugh, I ugh, was licensed in ugh, the eighties. It would have been nineteen-eighty-nine, nineteen-ninety. �MC: Hm. So you’re certainly a veteran preacher as it were then. Ugh, so on to our, our more specific questions, and the first one is, ugh, how has your experience been like living and working in Baltimore prior to the events, so before the events surrounding Freddie Gray’s death in twenty-fifteen? RPT: I’ve enjoyed living in Baltimore City. Ugh, when ugh, my professional life as I’m a service technician and I worked for Sears, ugh, I repaired washers and dryers in people’s homes so I got around Baltimore City and the five surrounding counties every day in a service vehicle visiting homes and ugh, for the most part we’ve enjoyed a pretty peaceful Baltimore City ugh, after the ugh, Martin Luther King Riots, and ugh, there has been a little disturbances here and there, but for the most part, Baltimore City has been quiet and productive. MC: Fantastic Reverend ugh. So even in your, your other sort of occupation you’re still very much involved with the community as it soundsRPT: Yes. MC: -ugh, so then my next question then, Reverend Turner, is how do you view race relations in Baltimore before the events following ugh, Gray’s death in 2015. RPT: Well, race relations has always been a volatile issue. It goes up and it goes down (clears throat.) Ugh, for the most part ugh, we haven’t had too many racial ugh, clashes, um basically because many of the white people lived in the county, few lived in the city and a lot of the black people lived in the city, some in the county so ugh, I would say that relations was normal but you’d have some uprisings here and there. MC: Fantastic then. Ugh, may you please share where you were and what you were doing when you first heard about the events that occurred as a result of Freddie Gray’s death in twentyfifteen? RPT: Ugh, you talking about before the riot, or during the riot, or just at the beginning of it? MC: We can go with before. RPT: Okay. I drive a school bus. I enjoy driving a school bus. Ugh, I’m a little too old to work on washers and dryers nowMC: (Chuckles) RPT: -I still do, but not on the level that I used to. And ugh, I enjoyed driving children back and forth to school, especially elementary schoolMC: Mhm. �RPT: -and I ugh, was driving the school bus up ugh, ugh, Pennsylvania Avenue when I heard the riot had started at Mondawmin Mall so I immediately made a u-turn and came up North Avenue to Fulton Avenue. As the riot was moving ahead of me I tried to get behind it so that they wouldn’t destroy the school bus that I was driving because I had elementary school students on it who were actually terrified and I wanted to get them home as quickly to their mothers as I could, safe. MC: So you, so you circumvented the crowd so to speak in order to protect the children on board the bus. RPT: That’s correct ‘cause they had damaged Mondawin Mall and the police cars they set on fire and they were moving down Pennsylvania Avenue to actually attack the CVS Pharmacy. MC: Mhm. Mhm. And that would be the CVS Pharmacy then that was in a lot of the television shows then, a lot of the news broadcasts that was, that was shown burning with everyone running out of it then. RPT: Yes, the one at North and Pennsylvania Avenue. Yes. MC: So then sir, ugh, what are your personal feelings on the events after the death of Freddie Gray? So, we can focus moreso on the events that happened after he, he died, Mr. Gray. RPT: (Breathes deeply) Well, the news media plays up a lot about mistrust between the police department and the black communityMC: Mhm. RPT: -and I encourage the stations to report the news correctly, to, to tell this, the story of us, and the black community is in two parts. You have the criminal community that don’t pay any taxes, that commit the crimes, and fight with the police, but then you have the more silent part of the community that pays taxes, that work, that own businesses and property that do not get into fights with the police. We don’t have criminal backgrounds, so we don’t mistrust the police department, and as I’ve tried to share with the news media, in nineteen-fifties, my grandmother had an apartment on Carrollton Avenue, and, the police department was located at Pine Street, where the University of Maryland have their police department now, that used to be Baltimore City Police Department district. In the nineteen-fifties the police walked the street in a beat fashionMC: Mhm. RPT: -and they had a call-box on the corner with a light on it and it would flash when the police had a call. Well, in the fifties, there weren’t any McDonalds’, or Burger Kings, or ugh, Dunkin Doughuts, or Starbucks for the police to go when they needed to use the bathroom or wash their hands. The police came into people’s homes. In my particular case, my grandmother knew �Sergeant Graham out of the Pine Street district, and he had keys to our house, and they were not boyfriend and girlfriend, they were just friendsMC: Mhm. RPT: -so the men that worked with Sergeant Graham would come to my grandmother’s house for breakfast, lunch, dinner. They used the bathroom, they washed their hands, they watched TV, they used the telephone, my grandmother washed their clothes. They were constantly in and out of our house, and we had no problem with the police and I’ll share this with you, ugh, we’ve had police come into our house, take off their top coat, their hatMC: Mhm. RPT: -and their gun belt, and hang it up on my grandmother’s coat rack and the policemen would lay down on the couch and go to sleep! This is how much they trusted usMC: Mm. RPT: -and we trusted them, so I don’t have any problem with police. We have no problem with Baltimore City Police whatsoever. They’ve never hit meMC: Mm. RPT: -they’ve never beat me up, but I don’t get into arguments with them either. I don’t try to hit the policeman in the mouth, I don’t try to reach for his weapon, and I certainly wouldn’t set his car on fireMC: Mm. RPT: -so the police and us have no problem at all. MC: Thank you, ugh Reverend Turner. Ugh, so with your answer then, would you say that you personally condone or condemn what happened, with the events that happened after Freddie Gray’s death, or do you think you’re indifferent to those events? RPT: Ugh, I definitely condemn themMC: Mhm. RPT: -I was never as embarrassed and ashamed of black people to see them on television throwing rocks at the Maryland State Police, Baltimore City Police, and the Anne Arundel County Police. I was embarrassed and ashamed. �MC: Hm. Ugh, were you personally involved then sir, with any of the activities following Freddie Gray’s death, and if you were, could you perhaps then explain your involvement in any of them? RPT: Well, when I got off the school bus run and I could catch two buses to get home, I was coming up Greenmount Avenue. Ugh, it would have been probably nine-thirty, quarter of ten. Ugh, I believe that was April twenty-seventh, Monday, April twenty-seventh, and I wanted to go into the CVS Pharmacy, and I walked up Greenmount Avenue towards North Avenue and the pharmacy was open, the lights were on, and I thought, that’s a little strange ‘cause when I looked at my watch I’m sure they were closed. The grate was down, but the lights were on, and there were people in the store, and there was a gentleman at the back of the store saying the pharmacy’s open, and the pharmacy’s open? The pharmacy can’t be open. So, when I got closer I could see that they had broken into the pharmacy. I’m yelling and screaming at them to stop, didn’t do any good, so I got my cellphone, I tried to dial nine-one-one but I couldn’t get throughMC: Mm. RPT: -My neighborhood association president, ugh, Lena, called the police on her-she emailedMC: Mhm. RPT: -the Eastern district police and they came out right away and they were able to apprehend people taking things out the pharmacy and putting them in their cars and driving away. I was very, very ashamed of that action, but proud of the response of the police. MC: Thank you Reverend Turner. Ugh, so you touched on this with one of your comments earlier, but even though the national media has used a variety of different terms to describe what happened last year, what terms would you use, if any, sir, to describe the events in Baltimore in April of last year? Perhaps, for example, demonstrations, protests, riots, uprising, etc? RPT: Ugh, honestly, the Freddie Gray Riots was a lie: l-i-e. MC: Hm. RPT: People didn’t even know Freddie Gray until he died, myself included, had never seen him, not to know it, never heard of him. It was a riot used for looting, stealing, and burning. MC: Hm. RPT: It was an opportunity for the criminal community to retaliate against the police for all of their hard work in putting them in jail and enforcing the law, and in our community we are very big on committing crimes and avoiding prosecution, and this causes a clash between the police and the black community. �MC: So if I may follow up then, ugh Reverend Turner, what was your reaction then to the media coverage of the events? Do you feel as though television news and newspaper reports accurately and or fairly told of the events? RPT: No I do not. I, I don’t agree with the way they reported it, and I’ve told them they haven’t reported it correctly. MC: Hm. RPT: The criminal community was speaking for everybody when they were talking about how lousy the police are, ugh, police terror, the police going around killing people, and in my years in Baltimore City I have not found that to be the caseMC: Hm. RPT: -and so I’ve told the news media, don’t forget, the black community is two communities. Come to the taxpayers, and the homeowners, and the business people, and ask us what we think of the Baltimore City Police and the work that they do, and we don’t have any trust issues with them, and I personally think Baltimore City Police are doing an excellent job, and I try to encourage them in that as often as I can. So to the news media, I say, don’t catch the first person you see in the street and interview them. Come to some of us that own homes and ask us what we think about some of this stuff. MC: Thank you Reverend Turner. So you’ve used this idea of two different groups, if you will. RPT: Mhm. MC: Do you think that’s just appicable-applicable, pardon me, to ugh, black people as a whole? Do you think that’s also specific to black people in Baltimore? RPT: It’s, it’s in black people in a whole. They’re round the country, and the black community, we have the same problem. They’re all kinds of police-involved shootings and why? ‘Cause black people want to commit crimes and avoid prosecution, and our black men have to understand that there is a proper way to deal with the police officer. When the police officer says hold it, stop. Keep your hands where they can see them. Answer their questions. Don’t yell and scream at the man or woman, just answer their questions. Be calm, be cooperative, don’t be pulling objects out of your pocket pointing it at ‘em and things like this, don’t run away from them or walk away from them with your hands up. Just stand still and listen to what they have to say. That’s what I do, and I’ve never had a problem with them, ever, and I’ve also been falsely accused of things that I haven’t doneMC: Hm. �RPT: -but because I was cooperative with them it didn’t go any further, it, it stopped right there in the street. I, I, I was accused of a crime one evening, I’d just gotten off from work with Sears and I was sitting in my car, and the engine was running fast, and two Baltimore City Police came up to me. They shined a light in the car, one was a man, one was a woman. They stood there looking at meMC: Mhm. RPT: -and I rolled down the window and I said what is wrong? And the police officer says put your hands on the steering wheel where I can see them, so I put my hands on the steering wheel where he could see them and I said what is wrong, and the female police officer said a crime was committed by a black guy in a car by himself. I said, well officer, I just come out of that house over there, and I pointed to my parents’ house, and she said you just come out of that house? I said yes ma’am, and so she went over there, knocked on the door, asked my mother and my sister did they know me. They said they did, did I just come out the house? They said I did. MC: Hm. RPT: The police officer came back to the car and said fine, and they let me go. But if I had jumped out the car, started screaming and yelling, want to hit the police in the mouth, or pull something out of my pocket, the situation would have gotten worse and this is what I encourage black males to do, and it’ll stop the shootings, chokehold deaths and all of this stuff. MC: Ugh, thank you Reverend Turner. Do you think that-you’ve pretty much addressed this question but I would just like to clarify. Do you think the media has any influence on the way events in Baltimore were received both by the city of Baltimore and then by the nation as a whole? RPT: Yes. When they report that a white police officer has shot an unarmed black man, it really throws everyone in the riot mode. MC: Mhm. RPT: I have asked them, and I talk-said to them, please, I don’t want to tell you how to do your job, just would you not say a white police officer has shot an unarmed black man because when you do that, the tension starts and it builds, and it doesn’t stop until violence occurs. MC: So you think titles like that help incite or fan the flames, so to speak? RPT: Yes, yes. Starts it, and fans it, yes. MC: Mhm. Ugh, so we’re actually getting towards the conclusion of the interview. Ugh, overall sir, how do you think the events-how do you think the events surrounding Freddie Gray’s death �have worked out in Baltimore? Do you think that the city’s recovered from those events or do you think that there’s still work that needs to be done? RPT: There’s a lot of work that needs to be done. There’s a, there’s some fault on the police department, but most of the blame falls on the black community, and I personally am trying to start a, ugh business. It’s called Baltimore Recovery Community Restitution. I don’t have it legal yet, but I would like to go around and collect money from the black community to pay for the damage we have done to this community. I’d like to present the MTA police with six brand new police cruisers that we set on fire, and that ugh, transport wagon. I’d like to give Baltimore City Police about six brand new police cruisers that that boy was jumping up and down on top of it, trying to pull the lights off of it, kicking it. The black community needs to understand those police cars do not belong to the police. They were paid for by taxpayers, they’re our cause, and they hurt us when they did such a thing, and I’d like to see us black people reimburse Baltimore City for the damage we’ve done. One hundred and forty-four cars we set on fire, the, ugh, Mondawmin Mall, we destroyed it. Ugh, Baltimore Development Corporation paid for that. They should not have to do it. We should send them a cashier’s check. We should give the CVS Pharmacy people a cashier’s check for the damage we did to their pharmacyMC: Hm. RPT: -for the Rite Aid pharmacies we damaged and stole their stuff. We should write them a cashier’s check, for that damage. That should come from the black community saying we apologize for the damage we have done, and the people we have hurt, especially Mr. Levi and his brothers, and their wives. We took full advantage of them. MC: Hm. So then, Reverend Turner, how do you view race relations after-after the events following Freddie Gray’s death here in Baltimore? Are-do you think there are any ways to help further improve those relationships? RPT: If us black people would encourage our students to get good educations, to get jobs, to stay away from gangs and drugs and violence, to stop committing crimes and avoid prosecution, I think we’ll go a long way, at least on our side, to improve interrace relations, because white people are afraid of us. MC: Hm. RTP: They see all of us black men as criminals. They think we’re violent, and, and actually, we’re stupid, for the things that we do. We, we want to hijack their cars. Want to ugh, ugh, the other day two boys stole a ugh, Mercedes and ran it into the Jewelry Exchange in Bethesda. They ran the car right in the window and took the man’s jewelry. These were black guys, three of them. When white people see us constantly in the news media, we’re robbing, raping and murdering people. They say, well, all of them are like this and we need to change that image, back to what it was in the fifties when black men got good educations, they got jobs, they got �married. They supported their families and things, and they had homes. It was a more stable community and things were a lot better than they are now. MC: Ugh, thank you then. Um, one of my last few questions I have for you Reverend Turner, do you think that events in Baltimore are connected to any larger, national trends? RPT: Yes. With the drug community and the gangs, yes. They communicate in their little networks and one thing will travel from one city to another behind that, what they doMC: Mm. RPT: -and it’s, it’s really disgraceful. MC: Mhm. As a quick follow-up to that one then, do you see any larger trends, ugh, not just with the drug community, but with the police community as a whole? RPT: Well, the police try very hard to enforce the law, and it’s a hard job that they do. Um, ugh, a trend, not so much with the police department, but with black males, between eleven and thirty-five, they have lost the will to work, and you see them out panhandling people for money, and when they panhandle me I ask them, why don’t you have a job, and many of them tell me I don’t have a job because I don’t want one. I don’t want one, so that means they’re going to steal. That’s what it means. They’re going to loot, so the relations between the police department and that part of our community is going to be strained because they’re going to go into stores, loot, shoplift, and do those things, and the police have to stop them, and when the police stops them, that’s the clash. MC: Mhm. Ugh, so one more question, um, and thank you for taking your time out, and this is moreso for our organization, are there any other people you can think of who might be willing to share their thoughts for our oral history project? RPT: Ugh, positively speaking? Ugh, if you interview anybody that doesn’t have a criminal record, that has a job, that owns business, or property in Baltimore City and they’re trying to do the right thing by obeying the law, you will hear their perspective and it will be greatly different from what you hear now. But I do thank the Justice Department for stepping in and trying to see that there are problems in the police department and correct any of the problems that they may have, okay. But I, I just don’t think that the problem is in the police department. MC: Mhm. RPT: The problem is in the black community. We are the ones that need to change, and we’re God-fearing people. That’s what I do not understand. We, we fear God, he brought us out of slavery, he, he, he gave us opportunity, and we thank him by committing crimes and avoiding prosecution. This is very bad. �MC: Mm. Well Reverend Turner, Reverend Phillip TurnerRPT: Yes. MC: -you ugh, have answered all of my questions. Thank you for again for taking your time on this very rainy Saturday in October. I certainly appreciate it. The Historical Society thanks you as well. RPT: And thank you for having me. I appreciate it. MC: Thank you so much. � https://www.baltimoreuprising2015.org/files/original/3898af6c454d5246af79ddd5b242c42f.pdf 288b720fe6284437bb61cc5828fc381d PDF Text Text �� Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Preserve the Baltimore Uprising Archive Intern Oral Histories Collection Description An account of the resource Oral histories conducted by the interns of the Preserve the Baltimore Uprising Archive Project. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Preserve the Baltimore Uprising Archive Project interns at the Maryland Historical Society Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available MdHS Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Micah Connor, Sha'Von Terrell, Sterling Warren, Sydney Cook Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource MP3, PDF, JPG Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Micah Connor Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Rev. Phillip R. Turner Location The location of the interview Maryland Historical Society Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound Yes Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 24:15 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Rev. Phillip R. Turner Interview Subject The topic of the resource Demonstration / event Description An account of the resource Rev. Phillip R. Turner is interviewed by Micah Connor. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Micah Connor for the Preserve the Baltimore Uprising Archive Project Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available MdHS Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 10/1/2016 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Micah Connor Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource MP3, jpg, and PDF Baltimore Baltimore Police Freddie Gray Maryland Historical Society media Mondawmin mall police protests riots